Well, Joss Whedon said shortly after Chosen aired that Buffy was in love with Spike the moment their hands clasped.


Jane Epensen once had the theory said to her that Spike did believe that Buffy loved him, but he only said it to get her out of that cave.

And I do think that she loved him in season six. The one moment that stands out to me is the last scene of Dead Things when she says, 'You always hurt the one you love.' Repeating what Spike says to her.

Also, the first few times they have intimate contact she is the one who intiates it, Spike doesn't. In Once More With Feeling, she follows him into the alley where they first kiss. In Tabula Rasa, he leaves but she goes after him again. In Smashed, she is the one who kisses him first. The second time they have sex, she comes to his crypt and intitates it.

And in season seven there were many instances where it showed that she loved him. Most of that season her sole focus was him. She took care of him, she protected him, she saved him. She ran to him in Lies My Parents Told Me, their were tear tracks on her face when she got to Wood's garage.

Then their was the scene with Cassie, the seer, when she tells Spike, 'She'll tell you, some day she'll tell you.' The only thing that could possibly have meant was 'I love you.'

And Buffy never says I love you to someone unless she actually means it. She never said it to Riley. She doesn't throw those three words around lightly, she even says that herself.

Then there was the scene in First Date where she tells Willow, 'Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?' That implied that she did love him.

The scene at the end of First Date when she tells Spike, 'I'm not ready for you to not be here.'

The one scene in season seven that tells me that she was no longer in love with Angel was when she says, 'I loved him more than anything.' She used the past tense of the word, loved. If she was still in love with him she would have used the word love. But no, she said loved, which meant that she was no longer in love with him.

There was also the scene in the Girl in Question, when Andrew says to Spike and Angel, 'She loves you both.'

Buffy was in love with Spike the moment their hands clasped. -- Joss Whedon (San Diego Convention)

The great Marsters with a chemistry with Buffy that is just completely different from Angel's, and different than David's, and yet works very, very well. He's more on Buffy's level. He's more... Their vulnerabilities come out, and I don't just mean as characters, but as actors around each other. And that really works, it works on a very different level. Their relationship has clearly been through a lot -- much more, in fact, than her relationship with Angel, in a way. And you feel that history with these two, and they bring it to the set every time they come to work and that's why we still came to work, because they did. -- Joss Whedon ("Chosen" Commentary)

Love him when you say you love him. Love her when you say she doesn't love you. Forget about the crumbling world. For that period of time, it doesn't exist. It's a cinematic trick, but it's a necessary emotional one." -- Joss Whedon ("Chosen" Commentary)

At long last, Angel is returning to the show. How does that affect Buffy's ongoing love-hate relationship with Spike?
I wanted to make definite statements about both relationships but I had to do it in the same episode. It was weird. I had a lot of structural juggling to do to figure out how to make sense of the two most important men in Buffy's life showing up at once. -- Joss Whedon (5-03 Entertainment Weekly)

In the end of "Chosen", when Spike tells Buffy "No, you don't", somebody asked who was right. [Jane Espenson] said she believed that Buffy did love Spike, but that it still hurts her because she doesn't like to think that Spike's self-esteem is so low at that point. Somebody suggested that maybe Spike knew Buffy loved him, but said it to "let her off the hook" so she could leave. And she thought that was fascinating and said she'd have to think about it more - she'd never thought about it from that angle. (2004 Las Vegas Writer Con)

If someone is there for you, is asking nothing of you and has loved you faithfully and unconditionally for all those years, and if that person is the one that you turn to for comfort and support when you are at your most vulnerable, and if they give you that comfort and support unconditionally asking nothing in return, then whether you acknowledge it or not, that is love, so yes, Buffy loved Spike. -- Jane Espenson

Do I believe that she loved him as much as she loved Angel, probably not. Spike and Buffy's relationship was different, more complicated, their was more history, but yes I do believe she loved him. Not as much as Spike loved her though.

And I'm sure since I'm a Spuffy fan as well, one of the Bangel fans are going to call me biased, lol.

well as a bangel fan you now im going to say that she only said it so that he could die thinking it and he knew her heart will always be with angel, but have to say you made a very good case! i do agree that spike was veryimportant and that he did himself love her but i dont think there was love from her at all in s6, she was just a girl with needs and wanted to cant think of the word but satisfy her needs without being judged and se nknew she never get that off spike i will say that she strted to care for him in s7 though i ust dont think that you can say the same about s6!

I totally agree with you Debs. That part always bothered me. And since Joss did that and the whole cookie dough thing in the last episode, he was sending major mixed signals.

As for her heart always being with Angel. I think that's true and there's no going back. But I also think that from the moment she loved him on, her heart will always be with Spike too. I think she's in love with both of them. That's why the Spangfy or whatever you call it doesn't freak me out at all.

I had very mixed feelings about the way their sexual relationship began. On one hand, it was hot, and in my opinion about time. But on the other hand, they had so much potential that was tainted by the nature of their sexual relationship. From the moment in Intervention when she kisses Spike, to the moment in Season 6 where she tells him that she had been in Heaven, or even the kiss at the end of OMWF, there was SO much Sweetness between them. Their relationship was nurturing and healthy, and they really seemed to show affection for each other.
And then the sex started. And Spike wanted to drag her down whereas before he only wanted to be with her in the light. I don't know, I think the relationship sort of had a major mistep there. It did get fixed eventually, but it took Spike getting his soul to repair.

The idea of Spike/Buffy/Angel doesn't freak me out either, because I can see it being an interesting dynamic and actually working. They would have their share of problems of course, but she does love them both.

Plus that just might be the Spuffy and Spangel girl in me, that if it was all three of them the Bangel might not bother me to the extent that it usually does.

And I think after the sex started, Spike was only trying to communicate with her in the only way she would let him. With sex. Before that they were friends and had such a sweet relationship, but after the sex it got complicated and messy, and I think the sex for them was too soon. And yes, it didn't get fixed till Spike got his soul for her.

*stares in disbelieve at nosemuffin*
you just used a bangel arguement lol
i don't get why the sex is a bad thing?

The sex is what ended their friendship. Before that they were friends, and I think without the sex she could have grown to care about him and love him sooner, when she saw what he would do for her.

When they had sex, it was just the catalyst for all her feelings of self-loathing and disgust to come out. She didn't want to think about why Spike was the only person who made her feel something, so she tried to distance herself from him but came to him anyway all the same. And yet, she pushed herself away from the friendship they were growing to have until all the communication they had was sex.

So, Spike just tried to communicate with her in the only way she'd let him. Which sort of resulted in the final act of badness in Seeing Red, but ultimately came to the greatest act of love he did for her when he got his soul back for her to be the man she deserved.

The sex prevented their relationship from being anything more than physical in the sixth season, no matter how much Spike wanted it to evolve into a relationship of love.

I think Buffy loves them both, and will always love them both. But, I don't think that she's going to end up with either one, because one, Joss knows it will piss off to many fans if he ends it one way or the other. I think, in the end, Buffy's going to be alone at the end of the comics, or he'll do the unexpected scenrio and make it Spike/Buffy/Angel as a menege a trois just to satisfy both groups, and the Spangel group which is actually quite a large group in and of itself.

It's not that sex is a bad thing. Like I said, it was hot. But, it did change the dynamic of their relationship. They both started treating each other like shit when they were having sex.

The hope of Spuffy is what got me through season 5, which was a hard season for me. I was very resistant to the whole Dawn thing. She was obnoxious. The Glory/Ben storyline, while cool in some ways, could have been handled a lot better. The writers themselves said that they didn't really know where they were going with it, unlike with other Big Bads, and I think it's fairly obvious when you look at how it all unfolds. And then the way that Buffy treated her friends at the mere mention of "what if you have to kill Dawn?" really pissed me off. How could she threaten Giles (much more of a father to her than her real dad) like that?

So after season 5, and the great intro into season 6, it's only that I was a little disappointed by the way they were treating each other. They gave us the sweet (sex) but not without the sour. You know what I mean?

okay i see what you mean about the sex jumping a leap in their realtionship but can you seriously imagine them going to the cinema or something?

buffy and spike work so well in season 6 because they both want to 'stay in the dark'

anyways back to the orginal topic

do you think buffy would have stayed longer in the hellmouth if spike had of said "i love you" back?

Maybe she would have stayed. Maybe if Spike had believed her, or said I love you back she would haved stayed, not willing to loose another lover. Maybe she even would have died with him, and then they both would have popped out of the amulet in Angel's office. Wouldn't that have made an interesting Angel season five?

That ties into the theory that Spike did believe her but just said that she didn't to get her to go out of the caves. Course it could have just been his self esteem was that low when it came to her, I wouldn't blame him.

And actually I can imagine them going to the cinema. Spike's pretty domesticated for a vampire. He watches passions, The Great Pumpkin. I can see him wanting to go on a regular date with Buffy, though it would probably be very awkward. And yes, in season 6 I think they both wanted to stay 'in the dark'. Hide away from the light that wouldn't accept them together.

my god that would have been ace!!!
a regular date lol look at how crush went hehe, i can imagine them watching tv together or going to a bar together but i think their both happiest fighting and the erm... celebrating afterwards lol buffy seemed to do that a lot with riley too

i think ghost buffy and spike would be very interesting to see, with out them being able to touch each other and spike anoying angel and buffy and buffy anoying angel and angel trying to keep track of them both oh, fun times

i think however corporial buffy would be harder to do as she would then have to actually do something about spike and angel, which would resort in a lot of miffed fans either way

Yeah, ghost Buffy and Spike. Finally admitting their mutal love and not being able to touch each other, lol. And having to deal with a jealous Angel! It would have been great, but the problems would have stacked up when they were coporeal.

I actually heard in the Girl in Question it was suppose to be SMG or Michelle Trachtenberg instead of Andrew that met them in Italy, but they couldn't get either one. I think I would have liked it to be Dawn more though, seeing her and Spike's reunion. One of the things I hated about season seven was that they never could patch up their friendship, even though I understood why.

And yeah, Buffy did seem to do that a lot with Riley, just like with Spike, lol. Except with Spike she turned to him for help, unlike with Riley, which is his reason for the vamp ho's. Or so he told her.

Ok, I agree that Buffy is probably in love with Spike by the time of his death in Chosen. All through S7 she watches him grow, change and deal with him having a soul.

Pre-S7 though, they're not friends - Buffy uses him. She uses him in S5 because he is the only one who is strong enough to protect the people she loves and in S6 she relates to Spike because she can't relate to those around her - sometimes it's easier to talk to a stranger. Also Spike's the only one who's been through what she has, he's the only one who understands. Friends though? I can't think of one conversation they have other than the one under the rug when they've just had sex. Buffy is in a very bad place in S6 and sleeping with Spike is something that helps make her feel alive, his acts for her are always caring and she feels wanted. When Buffy goes to the crypt to sleep with Spike it's not because she loves him...it's because seeing Riley has made her feel unwanted and unloved. He has moved on and is married to a girl not too dis-similar to Buffy herself whereas Buffy has not moved on at all...but is instead sleeping with something she hates. It's her desperate need to feel wanted that drives her there.

For me the sex didn't ruin the friendship because there was nothing there to ruin, the sexual attraction was always the main part.

Nosemuffin - Agree so much with everything you said about S5...except for I wasn't pinning my hopes on Spuffy to get me through it. More, it surely can't get worse than this. Then it did in S6.

Joker, I'm just shocked that you just said that Buffy was probably in love with Spike in Chosen.

But I think they were beginning a very small, slight friendship after Intervention, that ended right after Smashed.

a small slight friendship? she entrusted him and well practically only him with the life of dawn the sister she was willing to kill and die for

i completely disagree buffy and spike have had a understanding since trusting each other in becoming

at the end of season 5 and especially at the beginning of season 6, i don't think that friendship ended at the end of smashed i think buffy lost her faith in spike at the end of as you were

Yeah debs, you're probably right. Buffy trusting Spike with Dawn was a big step in their friendship, since Dawn was the most precious thing to her. She even trusted him to keep Dawn safe in the Gift over the scoobies.

And even after Seeing Red we still see her going to take Dawn over to Spike's crypt, which is an interesting thing for Buffy to do, especially since the last moment they were together ended horrible.

And I think they always did have an understanding since Becoming that when push came to shove, if they were in a truce, they would have each others backs.

i thought the leaving dawn with spike in seeing red was weird, do you think it was out of desperation, conviniance, denial?

I don't know. Maybe, even though she knew that Spike and her were in a bad place, she still knew that she could trust him with Dawn's life.

I don't think it would be convenience at that point in time you know, not after what had just happened. Denial, maybe a little, but I'm not so sure. It could have been a mixture of desperation and knowledge that Spike really did care for Dawn.

I think it was somewhat desperation and somewhat acceptance based on guilt. While she knew that Spike that shouldn't have attempted to rape her, she also knew that he was in fact a demon and that she had really played with fire. And deep down, she knew that he hated himself for it and would still do anything for her.

And honestly, who's to say that based on their past sexual relationship, the attempted rape couldn't just be seen as foreplay. We don't know exactly what that relationship consisted of. We know it what we saw in Smashed and other episodes. We know that Buffy described it as violent. We know that they did things that Spike couldn't even spell. And we also know that Buffy wasn't nearly as upset about it as most people would be, even Xander was angrier. I'm not saying I agree with rape by any means. I'm just saying that it may not have been much of a stretch.

interesting theory, i'm not sure i agree as we can see buffy's stress and upset in the episode, infact it's just awful to watch
but to spike especially it maybe wasn't that different

actually when i watch smash i always think it's weird the surprised look on buffy's face, it sort of make me think either he's exceptionally impressive ;P or she didn't plan on it going that far

I don't think Spike planned the attempted rape. We have seen how Buffy has said how she didn't want to have sex with him in the past, but initiated it anyway. I think he was only trying to communicate with her in the only way they had anymore, with sex. If you look at it, it doesn't even seem like Spike's in there. The lights are on but nobody's home during that scene, until he hits the wall and instantly his face is filled with crippling guilt. He came there wanting to talk with her, that was established. I'm not excusing what happened, but it wasn't premeditated.

I think she was more surprised at herself for kissing Spike and for having sex with him, and the fact that she wants it, and that she’s not denying it anymore in Smashed. I think there’s a quote on that.

(on the ending of "Smashed") It's important to note that Buffy kisses Spike first - finally taking what she wants, and what she's been afraid to admit that she wants. -- Drew Z. Greenberg ("Smashed" Commentary)

just thinking is dawn the only scoobie that weve never seen interact with angel?
and heres my quick summery of buffys feeling to spike, what i think anyway:
season 2 - i want to kill him wait were teaming up to kill my ex ok
season 3 - the quicker i help him the quicker he goes
season 4 - nah nah nah nah nah you cant bite me, treats him like a child
season 5 - you make me sick but wait you want to help me, hmmmm, maybe you can help protect people wiht me
season 6 - ok whose hot round here, spikes kinda good looking with the cheeks n all i need sex he wants me hell yeah
season 7 - omg hes got a soul, was that for me, ok so i think i kinda care about him, omg hes dying i think i love him ill tell him

please noone kill me, thats just what i think!

No, Tara never interacted with Angel, and neither did Anya really. And from what I've heard Dawn say in some episodes, I don't get the impression that she liked Angel much.

And I think in season seven the love had been building for a long time. You can see she loves him just from her actions, not the words. Words can be meaningless sometimes, it's our actions that show what we really feel.

All season seven she was focused on him, he was her single minded focus. When the baby slayerettes started turning up, she was obsessed with saving him. She was crying during the church scene in Beneath You. She forced him out of that basement to help him, and she told him things she knew he need to hear.

She refused to let any of the scoobies talk about killing Spike, and even when he was killing again with the trigger she refused to believe it. She didn't want to kill him. She took him home and took care of him, even after he had admitted to killing again, before they knew about the trigger.

In Lies My Parents told me she ran to Spike to make sure he was still alive. There were tear tracks on her face when she got there.

In First Date she says to Willow, 'Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?' Which implies she did love him at some point.

Cassie the seer tells Spike, 'She'll tell you, someday she'll tell you.' The only thing that could mean is I love you.

When they send Buffy out of her house, that whole time she was with the gang, the first thing that came to her mind was Spike.

In Chosen, she sends Angel away, and gives the amulet to Spike. That says a lot for her feelings about him, that she chooses to spend what could possibly be her last nights on earth with Spike, instead of Angel.

have to say ill let you talk me round a bit on season 7, just i really dont like it as a season so i try not to think about it that much, the finale was good but the rest was just blah to me, but we all know i love the earlier stuff and its not just cuz of bangel! i think in the finale though the way she said i love you it didnt seem sincere eough which is probabaly why spike said no you dont, cuz she hadnt really shown it as much, and spike was like yeah i know you dnt but thank you for saying it anyway kinda thing, but i think shes still not sure how she feels maybe she did want to love him and thats why she said it!

See, I think her actions in season seven do show that she loves him. Joss has said that Buffy was in love with him. Love, as it matures, can be different from first love, and shown in different ways for different people, but that doesn't mean it's not as strong, or that it's not there. I find it ironic that Buffy was always about passion in a relationship when she was younger, like she claims her relationship with Angel to be, but as she get's older she says, 'That kind of relationship doesn't last' to Spike. So, what exactly does that say really? It show's that she has changed as she matures and her idea of love and the way it's handled or shown has become different.

And actually, I think with the trying to hold back tears and the smile that she was proud of him, that it did come off loving. I think Spike said no you don't, but thanks for saying it, either because he wanted her to think he didn't believe her to get her to leave the cave, or because his self esteem really is that low.

And the fact that she sends away Angel, in favor of Spike, on what could be her last nights on earth, that says to me that while she will always love Angel, she is no longer in love with him, but that she is in love with Spike.

Buffy and Spike have more history, a lot more has happened in their relationship, and it is one of the most complex relationships in the show, and not easy to define. They are not soulmates, to me they are something more. They are enemies, they are lovers, they are friends, they are rivals, and they are equals, and they understand each other like no one else ever understood them before.

Has anyone else ever noticed the Dawson's Creek analogies? Buffy says to Angel once, 'Are you going to go all Dawson's on me every time I get a new boyfriend?' And he does. And Spike inadvertanely compares himself to Pacey when he shouts at the television, 'Pacey, you blind idiot. Can't you see she doesn't love you?'

I find it interesting, because in the end, Joey chooses Pacey over Dawson, who was always established as her soulmate. She says that while Dawson is her soulmate, the love she has for him is eternally pure and innocent, whereas she can see herself having a romantic, sexual relationship with Pacey. I find that a little like Buffy and Angel and Buffy and Spike, because while Angel might be established as Buffy's soulmate, she can have a romantic, sexual relationship with Spike. I think, like Joey, that she does love them both, different love for each, but no less strong.

ha ha ha mkena "wait we're teaming up to kill my ex ok" lol

ooooooooooo i was like wots she on about! ha! i get ya!

x-missmckena-x - I'm totally with you on the season breakdown. I'm sticking to short, sharp things like that from now on!

i like reading everyone elses essays just mine usually turn into rants and rambles so i thort best do it this way! lol!

yeah me too i normally right short ramberly paragraphs

Mine usually turn into essays, lol. I can't help it.

so long as their spuffy essays i'll keep on reading them lol

I do tend to focus on the Spuffy. I wonder if I could write an essay about another topic? Hmmm, I'll have to see, lol.

On Seeing Red Buffy says to Spike something like "I do have feeling for you but it´s not love" So i think that after Dead Things she realizes she feels something for him, but she can´t allow her to feel love because he has no soul, i´ve always seen the "i can´t love you" like "i mustn't love you". And the last scene of Showtime, to me that Buffy´s look is love. On season 7, now that Spike has a soul Buffy allows her to love him.

About who did she love the most?, i think this question is silly, is like saying who do you love the most mom or dad? There´s differents ways to love, besides Buffy is not the same girl that S1-S3, Angel haven´t seen Buffy´s worst version (season 6), Buffy doesn´t know anything about Angel (his son, Cordelia she became an important person in his life), Angel is always gonna be in her heart (like Oz in Willow´s heart), but after all that they´re been through separated i can´t see them together anymore.