The flashback I don't think was intended to show how he was in love with her back then, just that those seeds had been planted. I see where you're coming from. It can be easily disputed that luke may not have been IN love with peyton, but that he did indeed love her (s1). Afterall, there is no proof to cement either case; only evidence (lyrics that played in 1.13 when leyton admitted their feelings & kissed: "I wanna know what's like, on the inside of love; standing at the gate, I see the beauty of love", Luke's words in his book that I saw in 3 tenses, Peyton's words: "I'm IN love with him" - 1.14; luke down spiraling by bar hopping with a random woman after peyton ended their affair in 1.15). I truly think he was in love with her, but it grew stronger and more matured once s4 hit. I too believe that there are 3 tenses in luke's words: I was (past), now (present) and would always be (future), in love with PSawyer. The fact that those words connected with Peyton and I were always meant for eachother and every instinct to the contrary had been a denial of the following truth leads me to believe that. I think back in s1, they were both so young and didn't know what to do with those feelings (such strong feelings that led to cheating, secrets, lies & situations such as luke risking relapsing in his fragility by seeing peyton when he was supposed to stay in bed; or like peyton saying she'd wait forever if she had to; stupid things, cause kids that young + being in love is anything but simple) in those circumstances (ie brooke). The whole "in" love fiasco was definitely immature & undeveloped (shortlived relationship @ a very young age), but it was definitely still there - so in my opinion, THOSE were the seeds that were planted (I don't expect you to agree, just sharing my POV). Anyhow, at the least, I'm glad you can acknowledge that there were love seeds planted back then.

I see where you're coming from about the possibility of luke's words being manipulated. I think your being a brucas fan drives you to explore every crevice of leyton's epic love story, so I will not try and take that away from you. Though I see it as a little far fetched, it's always possible :)

honestly, we don't know who is going to be endgame. btw, i'm a definite Pro-BLer

we all expect LP to be endgame because MARK SAID SO. and the only reason why i can never ever ship LP because of their storyline. i honestly felt Mark twisted and manipulated (in a not so great way) their storyline to make their love seem epic. he added the "no/someday" by peyton, the lucas leaving peyton right away, and the almost-marriage to lindsey as just "obstacles" to make LP's love seem epic. seriously though, when i watched those storylines, i knew that Mark needed SOMETHING to fulfill his promise of making LP an epic love.

i think Mark shouldn't have even said who he wanted to be endgame! because it's expected, there is no element of surprise, and the intrigue of the show decreases. granted OTH has come up with some great storylines, but i think the majority of his fanbase is mainly made up of fans who love BL/LP/NH.

back to BL/LP. i think BL had a much more romantic/adorable (rain scene, giving Brooke his room to keep her in TH, writing/mailing those letters, decorating her locker, claiming that he was the guy for her, trying to win her back/fighting for her,etc.) and lovable storyline because it seemed realistic, like their love could happen in real life (like naley's - and mark wrote their storyline BEAUTIFULLY. watching naley on screen gives that sense of hope that an eternal love could exist, even through their hard times. with naley, mark added the RIGHT kind of drama and the PERFECT dose of romance. not over doing it and making their love so melodramatic)

with LP, i only find the book to be romantic, but even for me, its not that romantic... and random thought, but why did lucas leave peyton at the hotel room after she said "no/someday"? because that scene just showed lucas' conflicted heart - he couldn't make up his mind about whether or not he wanted to be with her BUT after their "suffering" of not being together, OH, well NOW lucas chooses to choose her when he could've chosen her 3 years ago! again, this goes back to my never liking LP because mark just keep adding crap to make LP seem epic. peyton shouldve said YES because she loved him and he loved her. THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH. im not defending LP and saying that they'll be endgame or that i like them, im just saying that mark has this way of trying TOO hard to fulfill his vision of LP as the perfect epic couple.

and frankly, i'm not convinced and i don't think i'll ever be...



RealLuvAlwaysBL, i completely agree with this: "I agree with the others who find the idea of being IN LOVE to be a process, and I feel like in order to have experienced it they would have to also be together." you cant just be IN love with someone immediately, i think lucas was in LUST with peyton and then he believed he loved her later on (s1).

Touché Abs!lol It would be far fetched to say the least, at this point. Anyways, I think it's my dislike for Leyton that drives me to explore every crevice, not so much my being a Brucas fan. Because honestly, as of S5 I would have rather Lindsey with him.lol I know I'm crazy!
Leyton even with all the evidence is not believable to me, and I think that is ultimately the bottomline for why I can find fault in it. It's nice to speculate as a Brucas fan about what could be construed as potential foreshadowing to them as endgame even as far fetched as it is! :) But I think that no matter where you stand on the issue most would agree that there really isn't a BETTER couple. That is purely opinion. And who is meant to be will be together in the end, and we'll all just have to deal with it then.

honestly i think lp will be ned game mark has always said how much he loved lp and peyton is his fave girl you can tel so shes obv gonna get the guy aswel as the fact brooke is always over looked they keep bringing in new guys for her when it would be so simple to give her lucas and peyton and jake but hey thats jus my opinion =)

My opinion is, Brooke/Lucas fans and Lucas/Peyton fans have their own opinions. And their will never be a winner. It's like discussing.....religion and evolution. Ok, this isn't as big as that, but the point is that, both sides have good opinions and there will never be a couple that both sides will accept.
So, EVERYONE, please please move on and just agree to disagree. Stay off the others spot, don't spread hate because it doesn't make any place better. Especially such a welcoming and friendly place like Fanpop.
So, think about it.
That's all I have to say, you can hate it or love it but please think about it. xo

lol leaving this now, it's too long for me to read! :D

kuriisten: we all expect LP to be endgame because MARK SAID SO
Mark never said LP were endgame. He said Luke's choice is peyton when it came to ending the triangle. It doesn't mean they'll end up together indefinitely.

why did lucas leave peyton at the hotel room after she said "no/someday"? because that scene just showed lucas' conflicted heart
It wasn't a conflicted heart. It was a broken one. Luke only heard "no" in peyton's words. When someone says no to a proposal, a relationship doesn't go any further than that. It becomes stagnant; pointless if it doesn't move forward. He didn't think Peyton would want to marry him. So he was heartbroken, and he ran. And don't forget that Luke called Peyton about his book signing in hopes of getting back together with her. But when he thought she didn't show up, he figured she didn't care ("Maybe you just didn't care" - Luke, s5e6). That's when he went and hid with Lindsey. It never meant he stopped loving; it just meant he didn't think she loved him enough. Even after Peyton admitted she came back for Luke, he hid. Why? Because he had old habits that he never learned from (hiding from his heart since s1 with brooke; and now s5 with lindsey). That's what s5 was about - luke finally growing up and reaching an emotional/psychological crossroads.

peyton shouldve said YES because she loved him and he loved her. Love is not enough - that's unrealistic if you think that's all it takes to get married. That's why lindsey didn't say yes (It takes more than love, to build a marriage). Peyton was not ready to get married. Simple as that. She was young; they both were. They hadn't even established their careers yet. Nate needed luke in TH and Peyton needed to see if her job in LA would go anywhere (become her dream job after a hopeful promotion) or she'd regret it. It's not as far fetched a problem as you think.

You thought the whole epic thing was forced, but LP fans didn't see it that way. We loved the suspense and our hearts broke for the both of them - especially in s5. I can understand how you thought the numerous hurdles in s5 were just dragged on. You're not a fan of them, so ofcourse you see it differently. It comes down to opinion. Epic love stories are rarely realistic for one. So as for leyton being unrealistic, maybe they are to a certain degree when it came to certain aspects of s5 especially. But the fact that they fell for eachother because of their similarities and attractive hearts isn't unrealistic. That's the base of their love story (s1). The hurdles in between is the story Mark told. Love is never easy - especially epic love. K, nuff said :P

realluvalways: I can find fault in it You don't have to dislike leyton to find fault in them. I don't however see a fault in mark's writing, just in leyton. No couple is perfect as we know, and alot of the hurdles that leyton has jumped over throughout the years were created by them. They got in their own way (s1,3, &5) alot of the time.

I completely agree with RealLuvAlwaysBL

But that qoute cannot be interpreted any other way because he says "I was now,(pause) and will always be..."
Meaning I was NOW(from that moment) and will always(from that moment on)
It wasnt "I, (pause) was (pause) now (pause) and will always..."

And the way abs07 interpreted it the sentence would have to be: "I was, I am, and I will always be in..."
Because that would make sense and also keep the parallel structure of the sentence that is needed, espcially if it was in novel thats edited.

And back to kellyerin you blame Brucas fans for being in denial but you cant addmit the fact that Lucas loved Brooke first and that Brucas still might be endgame.
Like you said you cant deny what happens on the show...then you should know that Brucas's history IS infact relevant!!!!
You contradict yourself alot.
Why cant you admit the fact that Brooke only truly loved one guy: Lucas.
Lucas and Chase cant possibly be
compared...because Chase, was a new character, introduced in the middle of S4 and left at the end of S4, while Brucas lasted for 4 seasons and had history!

Chase and Brooke telling eachother that they loved eachother means that they really did LOVE EACHOTHER
Peyton/Jake, Brooke/Lucas and Lucas/Lindsey said "I love you" to each other but you have a hard time believing those 3 couples...dont you? If you did believe them you would be shipping them.
You believe in a couple when you see something in them and obviously majority of the fans saw NOTHING in Leyton. No matter how hard Mark Schwan tries to make them 'epic' and 'meant to be' it just doesnt work. You have to see the couple fall in love, fight for each other...you cant just have words do the job. We, as viewers, have to see substance to actually like a couple. And honestly Leyton has...nothing. It doesnt draw you in, and Mark only ruins it. I agree with kuhhristen Mark tries too hard...which only makes Leyton look desperate and forced.

lol these "arguments" that you all are coming up with for Brucas just keep getting more and more hilarious
Seriously?!? you have no argument...you tell me that Im repeating myself, when you reply to every post with the same thing. Your argument is that Brucas's history is not relevant because Leyton is together, Brucas fans keep repeating themselves, and that Leyton is meant to be because they are together right now and LP cheats but not on each other so that makes them meant to be" the only Leyton fan here thats actually arguing with points is abs07 So you saying our "arguments are hilarious" is hilarious.

i was always thinkin that the quote was, "i was now, and would always be in love with peyton sawyer" but i don't think that means that Luke didn't love peyton in season 1. i just think that that is when he realized that he was in love with her and was only hiding with Brooke (like he did with lindsey). he says it himself in season 1 that brooke was for fun, and that he had a deep emotional connection to peyton..(im not sayin that brucas wasn't real)

Luke didnt love brooke first..he had been in love with Peyton for a long time before brooke even came along..and he cheated on brooke and broke up with her for peyton, if you think luke loved brooke in season 1, then i want no part in love. i definately think that Brucas is relevant, but i also think that they are over, and have been for a long time. i love their friendship, but i don't think they will ever be more than friends again. Brooke definately loved luke more than chase, i'm not gonna pretend she didn't, but luke never gave brooke his heart fully, it was always conflicted. and when he is with someone other than peyton, it will always be. can you honestly say that after luke chose peyton over lindsey and brooke, and you've watched the 5 episodes of season 6.. that there is a chance brucas will happen again?? they haven't had one scene together. that would be rushed upon us and i would be really angry, not only cuz i'm a leyton fan, but i don't understand how they could take back the whole season 6 premiere and season 5 finale of luke finale being true to his heart.. i'm not saying leyton is 100 percent endgame, i just believe that, and i really can't imagine a way that brucas could be together again. it wouldn't make sense..it would be like a whole different show, cuz it wouldn't even fit the plot that has been set for now 6 seasons. i believe that peyton/jake loved eachother i believe that brooke/lucas loved eachother, and i believe that lindsey/lucas loved eachother. It takes more than love, and personally i believe the only couple out of these that is BEYOND love is Leyton. mark definately didn't rush it on us..you just think that bcuz you like brucas. if brucas had all the scenes, you wouldn't hate it..you would probably love it..but ur blinded because you don't like leyton.

of course i understand how you guys can fight and believe in brucas, cuz i would never give up on leyton. i guess it's just hard for me to see it, cuz i love leyton, and it's probably hard for you guys cuz you love brucas. i guess it all just comes down to a matter of opinion..

my opinion is apparent. Leyton TLA.

Abs, the only point I was trying to make, was that the way that Mark has written Leyton is the ultimate reason why many, not all Brucas fans, dislike them together. It is however, the very reason why Leyton fans love them. Or atleast find their story compelling. What is epic to some is drawn out, unrealistic, and painful. In regards to the proposal, Kuriisten I agree, I think that her not saying yes to the proposal was silly, and while Abs you bring up very good points about how she didn’t say no, but someday, and Lucas was just hurt and left, the point is WHY Peyton wouldn’t say Yes. Not why Lucas took it the wrong way. He was proposing to her, and Lindsey said YES to his proposal. If she loved him and truly wanted to be with him someday, then in my opinion it was not congruent with her response. Especially when she in freakin HS proposed herself to Jake? IMO Mark and his proposals have gotten stale. Now I fully understand why she wouldn’t want to get married, but engaged, why not? That is what a freakin proposal is, and while Lucas was probably being a bit melodramatic as he generally is, it makes sense for him to walk away. It doesn’t make sense then for Peyton to not walk in the book signing. While to LPs fans their story keeps them going, for me it is what keeps me from being a fan.
Now I’m just going to have to put it out there, but the other reason I find Leyton hard to believe personally is their lack of on screen chemistry. Now I’m not saying its non existant all together, but for me, there is .01 percent romantic chemistry. I agree with SaBrucas, I think it is needed in a tv series to physically watch the development of characters. Between the denial of both Peyton and Lucas, that romantic development was overshadowed, and given Brucas’s on and off screen development it was simple clarity for many viewers. To be told, and not shown Lucas’s clarity, it just wasn’t as appealing to me. Now that’s just me. If I’m gonna invest my time in a show, I want to see it to believe it. And I saw it in Brucas, not Leyton.
IMO Leyton is a perfect love story for a NOVEL…not a tv series. I’ll even say Leyton is a perfect love story for a feature length film…not a tv series. For me they lack the on screen appeal, and the dose response that SaBrucas referred to in Naley of romance and angst to be a first rate tv couple. If you love em you love em, and you probably either don’t care about those things I mentioned, or you see something in them that I don’t.
Now if Mark doesn’t give Leyton some freakin Romance this season, I think I’ll be convinced that he’s officially fallen off his rocker. I mean that is just pure ignorance! No more CHEESE!

i'm sorry but saBRUCAS... i just have to respond to one of your comments... when i said that Brooke and Chase TOLD EACHOTHER that they LOVED EACHOTHER, so that means that they DID love eachother... i meant every word of it. Just because i don't "ship" Jeyton or Brucas or Lindcas doesn't mean that i don't think they loved eachother. usually when someone tells someone else that they love them, they mean it. i'm not stupid, i know that Brooke and Lucas really did love eachother at one point, as well as Peyton and Jake, and even Lucas and Lindsey. But just because i believe that they truly did love eachother (just like Brooke and CHASE did), that doesn't mean i have to "ship" them. saying that you don't "believe" Chase and Brooke loved eachother is just dumb, you have nothing from the show to back that up with. and as i said before, not believing it doesn't change the fact that it's true. and honestly... so what if it is? people love more than one person throughout their life... that's just natural, it's not like that hurts Brucas or anything, so what's the big deal with admitting that her and Chase really did love eachother? and as far as Lucas' quote about "i was now, and would always be in love with Peyton...." HELLO PEOPLE... if he wasn't referring to his feelings for her all the way back in season 1 then why did they show the season 1 flashback in his head before he told Peyton that she's the one he wants next to him? right before he told her that he had the flashback of when he said "i'll be seein' ya". i think THAT means something! he wouldn't be remembering all the way back to season 1 if it didn't mean anything. GO LEYTON!!!

Wow ok finally someone else realizes that he picked Peyton, not Brooke but Peyton. OK and those "damned books" just because they are edited does not mean anything, they dont change the story or anything, no matter who Lucas has every been with he has always had strong feelings for peyton, that ended what ever relationship he was in. He wanted Peyton at first, and he took Brooke because Peyton was not into him or at least not showing it. With Peyton he did fight for her, but with Brooke he gave up. When he is with Peyton, he is able to talk to her, and she is able tot alk to him. They get each other. With Brooke it was all about sex and having a good time, there were not that many serious moments. And he and Brooke have not been together for almost five years, a lot has changed its not like you can just pick up where u left off. He and Peyton had only been apart for a year or two.

saBRUCAS
ok, we'll just have to agree to disagree about interpreting luke's quote about 409 cause we're just going back and forth. Neither you or I can prove our cases in that point: If luke said "am" instead of "was", I'd have no case. But the fact that he said "WAS NOW" isn't structural - it isn't even proper english because it's two different tenses put together as one, and I can't ignore that. Nevertheless, I haven't ignored the fact that he didn't pause between "was" and "now". So, we both have cases, but neither of us have proof. Either way (whether luke's "in love with" declaration has 3 tenses or not), Luke had the flashback all the way back to season 1. That's what gave him his epiphany. Like tvfan said: it was about the fact that luke realized he was in love with peyton & was always meant to be with her. If s4 was when luke first fell in love with Peyton, then why didn't he have a flashback within that season with all the memories they've had. Flashing back to such recent events in order to show us how their love was founded would have been unrealistic in my opinion. The evidence (lyrics in 1.13 while leyton kissed & peyton's words in 1.14) also leaves the possibility open (despite the fact that we can't prove it to be false/true) that they did indeed share love in season 1. So can we at least agree on the possibility?

Brucas's history IS infact relevant I can't speak for kelly, but i've already mentioned that their history is relevant. It was important for both their growth processes. I won't go further, cause I won't repeat what i've said in my previous comments.

Peyton/Jake, Brooke/Lucas and Lucas/Lindsey said "I love you" to each other but you have a hard time believing those 3 couples I didn't have a hard time believing them. I just didn't warm to them. I believed Jeyton loved eachother. I believed Brucas and Lundsey loved eachother. That's besides the point. Leyton are the love of each other's lives (judging from peyton waiting all these years and Luke making his final choice out of the 3 in s6). To believe a couple when they say they loved eachother does not mean you automatically have to ship them. I just admire what they have (despite the fact that they're the most unrealistic couple on the show in my opinion). I see something in Naley, but I don't really ship them. I see a solidity, a strength, a perseverance that I appreciate - that's as far as it goes.

Mark tries too hard...which only makes Leyton look desperate and forced. That's the opinion of most brucas/antileyton fans. It doesn't make it a fact, because most if not all leyton fans appreciate it. So let's just leave it at that.

REALLUVALWAYS

the point is WHY Peyton wouldn’t say Yes Ok: She wasn't ready. She was nineteen. She was scared & knew Nate/Whitey needed luke in TH & she had to see if her job in L.A would become her dream career. She was smart enough for the both of them to realize that the timing wasn't right. Yes Peyton could have just said "let's get engaged and not set a date till I feel ready to get married", but how selfish and unbalanced would that sound? It would have fueled many fights when time passed and no plans were set in motion. Maybe peyton didn't believe in that kind of an engagement. Heck, I don't believe in it. Engagement is a huge step that should be taken when one is ready, not because you're in love. Love is not enough to lean toward/build a marriage.
When Peyton proposed to Jake, it was because Brooke had Lucas. She was settling for him. You couldn't have possibly taken it seriously (Jake was smart enough for the both of them to send Peyton back to TH first; and personally, even if it got as far as them being engaged for a while, I don't believe the wedding would have panned out). It's just like in s1 when peyton was able to get into a relationship with Nate, but hesitated with Luke. It's about getting close to the ppl you care about/love the most. I know. Peyton was willing to hide with Jake, and Luke was willing to hide with brooke (s1) & lindsey (s5). That's what made Leyton similar. That's what made them get in their own way for so long (they were both struggling to be true to their hearts). But peyton had her epiphany @ the end of s3, and luke had his @ the end of s5: They realized there was no use hiding their hearts, cause they're meant to be so they needed to get over themselves & just be together - hence season 6. No excuses.

Now I fully understand why she wouldn’t want to get married, but engaged, why not? That is what a freakin proposal is Again, a proposal is not an engagement. No one asks, "will you be engaged to me", they ask "will you marry me". Engagement is just the in between while you prepare for the big occasion. Peyton was not willing to string luke along till she felt she was ready. Notice how in s6e2, Luke asked her right away, "so when would you like to get married Peyton Sawyer?" 3 years earlier she would have had a very different answer than "let's find a place we like first". She was in the middle of figuring out her career in L.A and would have had no interest in planning a wedding she wasn't ready for (she wouldn't wanna do that to luke; she wanted to say yes because she was ready, not because she loved him). See what I mean?

It doesn’t make sense then for Peyton to not walk in the book signing Common! She thought luke was with lindsey. If she thought luke was asking her as a friend to come, then she probably would have sucked it up (like she did with brucas in s1/3/4. but she had no warning and was under the impression that Luke wanted to work things out (which he did). So she was caught off guard when she saw some woman kissing him, not to mention heartbroken, and she ran instinctively (and regretted it after 2 years of trying to move on knowing Luke was "with someone else"; she finally worked up the nerve to come back & fight 4 luke; because like I said, she had her epiphany in s3, so she knew where her heart lied forever & truly never wavered from that as luke did till his epiphany).

We've already discussed your not seeing enough chemistry between chad/hil but that boils down to opinion/point of view so I won't dispute it. I've already been honest with you about how I didn't like their chemistry in s4 (I found it lukewarm, but I still enjoyed their reunion because of the story that was told - I didn't demote the essence of Leyton's story just because chad and hil couldn't get it together). but their chemistry came roaring back in season 5 and their reunion this season gave me butterflies. So I hope they keep it going and I too would like to see some real scenes between them. Down and gritty, everyday relationship stuff. I personally think the cheese is cute cause i'm a fan; so I love the fluff (but I can see that the fluff is a gag fest to others), but I'm also looking forward to seeing more.

thank you abs

just wanted to pop in for the day and say GOOOO LEYTON!!!!!!!

LUCAS + PEYTON = TRUE LOVE ALWAYS :)

Abs. I see your POV and maybe others regarding Peyton's decision to say no to the proposal, but we differ in the connotations of those words "will you marry me?" And that's fine. I personally expect a substantial engagement period, and I suppose I only looked at the Leyton situation from my own perspective.
Regarding Peytons proposal. No I didn't believe she wanted to get married. But I do think she wanted the security. Peyton is obviously a very emotionally challenged individual as is Lucas and their challenges can be endearing to some, but out right obnoxious to others. I'm going to invest some time watching S1 fully, and maybe even tackle the dreaded S4. I don't feel I've given them a fair chance, but I still can get under them as a couple at this point. And in talking with you Abs, all the extra OTH time I can get can help! lol
Oh and the chemistry. its def just my opinion. I hope I made that clear.

Well said :) You have made it clear, about your opinion vs fact, no worries about that. Just a reminder, when you rewatch OTH/some of OTH, remember, chad & hil's chemistry (s4) doesn't need to hinder the story being told. I hope you gain some more understanding as you watch.

Once again, 'twas debating with you :)

BRUCAS

I honestly really tried to like Leyton, I watched S1 and S4 just like I watched other seasons, but I see nothing. Especially when we have Brucas as an alternative. I might have shiped them if there was no Brucas, but everytime I compare them Brucas wins. There was something in Brucas that Leyton lacked and still does. Brucas were just... soo amazing together. And the way Leyton got together was just horrible. They hurt people most of all Brooke, my favorite character, even if I werent a Brucas fan...how do you think I would like LP after what they did to Brooke?

I think LP fans need to watch OTH again maybe they'll see what we see in Brucas. Because you cannot help but fall in love with Brucas and Jeyton in S2 and S3.

abs07 I understand where youre coming from, but for me its really important to see the development and chemistry between a couple. Im watching TV, not reading a novel.

Just the fact that Mark Schwann says "the seeds were planted for LP since the pilot" makes me hate Leyton even more. What were S2 and S3 for?
Brooke wasnt a Lindsey! Ever!!!
He freakin put them together for 3 seasons, they had histroy, chemistry and everything an amazing TV couple needs IMO. Brooke wasnt a lindsey because we saw Brooke and Lucas fall for each other. Mark cant possibly pass both Brooke and Lindsey as obastcales for LP to over come. And he CANNOT say that on an interview! Its just wrong and disrespectful to a fanbase thats larger than of Leyton's...and yes I honestly believe that BL has larger fanbase.(based on the most recent polls)

I honestly really tried to like Leyton, I watched S1 and S4 just like I watched other seasons, but I see nothing. You don't have to like leyton. No one asked you to :) the debate right now is about facts/misunderstood events. It's ok to love brucas. I really think you need to move on from what leyton did to brooke though - it's anger you shouldn't carry (especially for fictional characters, heh). Don't forget what brooke did to peyton. They've both screwed up royally (and please don't compare the two mistakes cause they both involve lies and betrayal, that's what counts), & they've both forgiven. You should too. Just cause you forgive/get over it, doesn't mean you ship your fav couple/character less, or that you support/like the opposing couple/people...

I think LP fans need to watch OTH again maybe they'll see what we see in Brucas. That sounds a little converting, lol. Believe me, i've watched the seasons over. Countless times. I see what you see in brucas [at least to a certain degree - i'm not you afterall], but we [fans] are different people, so in the end our personal preference on how a tv couple should look like, are not the same. So I ultimately, do not favor Brucas. I actually first started watching OTH in s3, so I never knew leyton's history. All I saw was brucas and thought something was missing (as you felt something missing in leyton when they were together). Brucas was fun, witty, cute, attractive, comedic, but I saw very little depth. When I saw s4, I saw leyton and thought they were deep. Didn't favorite them yet though. Then in curiosity I watched season 1-3 and I saw something incredible in leyton right from the pilot. There was something about them. I couldn't put my finger on it yet, so I kept watching. I thought they were idiots for the whole cheating thing, but they were young and in love [IMO] and didn't know what to do with their repressed feelings anymore. It sucked when they lost eachother by the end of the season, and I watched s2 which was the worst season ever, lol. Brucas was the only highlight (and that says alot cause I never did care for them). It was nice that they developed a friendship and that luke genuinely saw her in a new light and came to appreciate her. It was cute that he finally fell for her as she fell for him in s1, but still I always thought about leyton (and @ that time I didn't even fall 4 them yet), cause they never did have proper closure; and they just "lost" eachother by s2. So I always knew @ the back of my mind that those two had unfinished business. So I went along with the brucas thing, and when they finally became official in s3e9, that was a beautiful moment for the two of them (despite all the damn hurdles brooke made luke jump through). I believed that they were genuinely in love. Still though, I wondered about leyton. Then the very morning after brucas reunites, leyton haunts brucas straight away. RIGHT from the start. Then I knew something was up. I knew leyton just wasn't gonna end that easily. Minor things like phonecalls & love letters, peyton revealing she loved a guy she let go & now regrets it (which were more likely dismissed by ecstatic brucas fans) were signs that leyton was not forgotten; not over - brooke noticed it too (and it went beyond insecurity; it was an inevitability roaming in her mind). When I saw s3e16 I fell in love with Leyton big time. There was something about them - to me, they became special (it was beyond two actors, it was a story being told, that I knew would be misunderstood by many; I however appreciated its bittersweet ingenuity). Though the moment was platonic, you can tell they shared something real that would never be drowned by time. In s3e17, watching luke open up to peyton, but not brooke, revealed more looming signs (Brooke gave you her heart; you should give yours back - and luke never disputed the statement). Again, Luke still didn't call brooke when he was away with his mom (s3e20), then s3e21 (Jeyton's 2 second engagement - jake realizing peyton's true feelings), then peyton's epiphany in s3e21 was probably my favorite leyton montage ever! I think that's when Leyton became my favorite couple. Right then. Memories of them flooded over that scene as they looked into eachother's eyes, and peyton's "I love you too" was heartbreaking. Luke knew she meant it, but obviously dismissed it for Brooke's sake. It just kept coming back to leyton. Not to mention Brucas was weakening with every episode. So season 4's outcome was not out of the question. It was a gag fest for brucas fans (which is understandable), and chilarie's lack of chemistry added fuel to the fire, but the sequence of events that led up to Leyton's reunion/brucas' demise cannot be ignored. Sorry, I know I repeated myself with the sequence of events, but I just wanted to reiterate what I saw in relation to those events (what made me fall for leyton; what made me realize that destiny played a huge role in their union; and what made me see that brucas just wasn't meant to be - you don't have to agree; I didn't dispute how you saw brucas/leyton, so please don't dispute how I saw them otherwise - @ this point in the debate unless we're stamping our opinions of events as facts, it just comes down to opinion).

In the end it's all about personal preference that leads me to prefer leyton always & what makes you prefer brucas always - despite the story that's being told and how it was told. What Leyton have (soulmates), their story, their chemistry (excluding s4)...It's simply beautiful.

I understand where you're coming from, but for me its really important to see the development and chemistry between a couple That's part of why you prefer brucas. Leyton's connection/love was almost instant (which didn't fly for many fans cause it seemed to easy, too quick, and therefore didn't seem genuine), while brucas' was a process. So I respect your preference, and I hope you respect mine.

Just the fact that Mark Schwann says "the seeds were planted for LP since the pilot" makes me hate Leyton even more. What were S2 and S3 for? S2&3 and even 5 were about the characters walking their journeys. Leyton got to fall in love with different ppl and walked their own roads. But those roads would cross eachother again in the end - destiny (i know, gag right? lol, well not for me). Your love for brucas prevents you from ever thinking that their love story wasn't in the same magnitude as leyton's. Some brucas fans have accepted it i've noticed, but it doesn't take away from their love and never fleeting support for brucas. Mark wrote the show that way and it won't please everyone (especially brucas fans). Brucas was a great journey/adventure, not an ending as brucas fans [who fell deeply] hoped and felt it should/would be. Again, that doesn't take away from the love they shared or from your love for them (as long as you don't let it).

Mark cant possibly pass both Brooke and Lindsey as obastcales for LP to over come Ofcourse brooke isn't lindsey, but it doesn't change the fact that luke did fall for lindsey big time and s5 took place FOUR years later. so we didn't have time to warm up to luke's new love - but the plot is there, and therefore so is the [unseen] history. Lindsey was a love Luke was willing to marry because the love of his life wasn't ready. If you try and ingrain that in your mind as you watch (lundsey's history), it could give you more perspective and let you realize that lindsey needed to be an option in luke's "trifecta". Lundsey went out for THREE years. They LIVED together. That's longer & more advanced ["relationship wise"] than both peyton and brooke. The degree of love is a different story though. Yeah luke knew peyton and brooke longer as friends in highschool, but it doesn't take away from the fact that lundsey grew very close within the respective storyline.

It's ok that you believe brucas has a larger fanbase. Either way, mark won't change his art to please everyone. He didn't make his choice to please the leyton fans either. He's had the show designed from the beginning, and he isn't gonna change it because of a certain fanbase's preference. He'd regret it, cause that's not how he wanted his art to appear. Just like a musician would regret changing a song to please a record label/fans, or just like an author to a book, etc. Honestly, from all the websites i've visited, sometimes leyton fans are more in number, and sometimes brucas fans are more in number. All I know are some facts: whether the larger fanbase ONLINE is brucas or leyton, the overall tv viewer population (which is what's important in the end - ratings) is what truly affects OTH's survival on tv. Only a fraction of OTH fans have joined a brucas/leyton camp online. And recent reports have said that ratings go up whenever there is a leyton scene. Also, season 6 has better ratings than ever. I won't make absolute statements that I can't prove. All we know is that there are two very large camps on both sides, and so luke's final choice will very much disappoint at least one of em'.

I don't wanna repeat myself, but I hope what I mentioned before made sense: about how 409 wasn't a random flip of a switch. About the events that led to it made things add up abit more (despite your personal preference and belief in brucas). And about how Leyton does have something (like them or not) that cannot be ignored or dismissed in my opinion. Brucas shared a great love, but a love that didn't grow along with them as they matured (remember 408?). Brooke deserves someone who will love & treat her the way Luke treats peyton when he's with her.

To add, about your frustration with Brucas being downplayed as an obstacle, they weren't. They just weren't the final couple. Luke and Lindsey were a little downplayed (which was fair, considering he only chose her cause he didn't think Peyton wanted to marry him/be with him after 505/book signing misunderstanding). With brucas, Brooke was important in Luke's journey. They grew when they became a couple and learned about the realities of life; that love is not enough - and is fleeting in some cases. They weren't just an obstacle, and I did not see them portrayed as that (in s1 they were; but certainly not in s2/3; by s4e8, we already knew Brucas was over; it was just a matter of tying up loose ends, so by then, they were an obstacle, just cause it ended up being about brooke making peyton jealous). Brucas got close in s2 and fell in love by the end of the season and had a great love in s3 - it simply didn't last, and their roads were meant to lead elsewhere in the end. I'm sure they'll always remember and appreciate eachother for the ppl they are and the connection they shared :)

well said abs07! Brucas' love was real at one time, but like you said, it just didn't last! the night that they offically ended things, Rachel said to Brooke at the basketball banquet "maybe you just realized that you don't love him anymore"... then later THAT night Brooke and Lucas ended things. i think that says it all right there!

I agree

First of all I just dont like it when people tell me to get over Peyton cheating on Brooke. I know it happened along time ago...but that was the end of Brucas and it changed the whole show...so why should I forget about it?
Yeah both Brooke and Peyton made mistakes, but they were in no way equal. I dont wanna start comparing the two, but I will say that Peytons were way worse... and its not the same and we could leave at that becuase I know you think differently.

I'm not being mean, but I recently just read a comment posted by you and you said "I always thought OTH was just another teen soap opera. Then I think i was bored flipping channels and the first thing I saw was a limmo going off a bridge, and nate jumping off to save his friends, and his wife yelling in horror. Gave me goosebumps. It really got my attention. Then I started watching bits of s4, and really got into it when the state championship happened I think. Action/drama is my second fav aspect of OTH sometimes tied with my first fav..."
I dont think its fair to say that we misunderstood the whole show when you started watching from the s3 finale when Brucas was ending and Leyton was starting...and IMO once you start watching and thinking the way you think its really difficult to change your opinion. Obviously you liked Leyton more because of when you started watching it. Not that all Leyton fans started watching in s4, but I do feel like many LPers started watching then or in s5 and never got to see Brucas or gave them a fair chance.
I've been watching since the pilot and I know alot of BLers were LP fans in s1, but I never was.

But you're right it does come down to preferences and in the end you like who you like.
All I'm saying that even after 2 seasons (and this one looks like another one) with no BL, still there is a huge fanbase for Brucas and even a larger one thats against Leyton(because there are some Lucas/Lindsey fans). Thats got to mean something.
I know Mark had a whole plan for LP, but things change and a show IS to please the viewers...and Its selfish to ignore them. And as far as Leyton seasons having the higest ratings...isnt all that true. S2 had the highest ratings so far and it was a BL season. And the ratings dropped in s3 because of the change of timeslots, and because they were competing with American Idol.

Kellyerin87- That doesnt mean anything now because of what Brooke said in s5 "Lucas Scott was the one boy I would have lost it all for" and meanwhile Peyton who has supposedly always loved Lucas wasnt willing to leave a crappy mail job for him.

anyways I'm done debating for now...

aww i love you Chloe i agree with everything you say! keep up the good work!

saBRUCAS... did it ever occur to you that maybe Brooke said that in season 5 to keep the BRUCAS fans interested? Mark has said from the very beginning that he's all about pleasing all the fans, and being careful to not let one ship feel left out... so i completely think that everything having to to with Brucas in season 5 was just to please the fans. because lets face it, ALL OF SEASON 5 was about Lucas/Peyton/Lindsey. So ofcourse when Brucas had scenes, they had to be somewhat good to keep up with all the Leyton drama. even then, i just don't see what that comment by Brooke could have even meant... yeah she said that... so what? what she said was "Lucas Scott WAS the one boy i COULD have lost it all for", meaning that he was at ONE TIME. or it could also just meant that SO FAR in her life, he was the only one that she could have lost it for, that doesn't mean that he is the ONLY ONE she could EVER lose it for. you know what i mean? she was just saying that up to THAT POINT, he was the only one that she had cared about enough to lose it for, that doesn't mean she still loves him or anything

This may be out of topic but yeah.

No one asks, "will you be engaged to me", they ask "will you marry me".

And Lucas did the same to Lindsey but the following day, when he showed up at his office and both Skills and Nathan are watching a game and saying that there's no way he can win the game if he always shows up late, he said something like there's time to plan a game but no time to plan an engagement. So, there was a thing called engagement in One Tree Hill world. I believe it was Lucas who said let's get married soon or something like that. So Peyton could've said yes to the proposal but no, she didn't. She was not ready to give it up yet, I know she was just starting and so is Lucas. But I think they can both wait. But yeah, they were young back then.

Just my thought. I'm done now. :D

but that was the end of Brucas and it changed the whole show...so why should I forget about it? that was in season 1. It wasn't the "end" end of brucas. they were just getting started - s2/3?? anyhow, if you can't get over that by now, why should we get over what brooke did with Nate? Why should we not mention her hypocricy seeing as how she did it first? Anyhow, as you said, we won't agree in comparing the two, so we'll leave it @ that. I wasn't telling you to get over it (like commanding, lol), I was advising you to 4 you own sake. Feel what you want; To me, it's just not worth having the baggage.

Obviously you liked Leyton more because of when you started watching it. Babe, read my comment again. I didn't see anything but depth in leyton when I was watching s4. It was when I watched it from the beginning through to s3 that I saw something special in them. So Leyton wasn't engraved in me at all till I watched it all from the beginning & s3e16 is when I fell in love with leyton. It was the action that caught my eye in s3 finale/4; not leyton.

"Lucas Scott was the one boy I would have lost it all for Is that why she dumped him in s4e1 and then used him to get back @ peyton in s4e8? She said that contextually. Luke was her first true love. That kiss between them in 505 reopened old wounds and she remembered what they had for a moment, but then realized again that their chapter was closed and she felt lonelier than ever. Anyhow, that's how I saw it.

Peyton who has supposedly always loved Lucas wasnt willing to leave a crappy mail job for him It wasn't about the job. Remember Luke was willing to move to L.A for her? She wouldn't have had to choose between her job and luke (anyhow, if luke did make a clear ultimatum, Peyton would have said yes: "If I knew that saying I was ready meant that we wouldn't be together, I would have said yes"). She wasn't ready for marriage, and she knew that Luke's proposal was not just fueled by love, but by insecurities of their long distance relationship (growing apart/trading few e-mails/going days without talking, etc.). Personally, I didn't blame her for saying "someday" cause luke had really crappy timing (he was just starting his career and peyton was still pursuing hers; not to mention they were only 19 and had only seen eachother 3 times in the last year). Peyton was right; it was out of the blue. The two were growing apart and were in no shape to run off and get married yet. You're all about realistic couples right? Well it takes a LOT more than love to build a marrige. That's why lindsey left luke @ the alter; that's why peyton said someday.

as for ratings being higher in s2, I dunno what your source is, but either way, recent reports have said that ratings have greatly improved in s5 (despite how low they got in s3 - which was primarily the brucas show and most brucas fans LOVED s3 for brucas - it always wins for their fav season in polls; so if anything, leyton fans may have lowered the ratings); also, ratings and have been steadily increasing week to week this season - that says something.

he said something like there's time to plan a game but no time to plan an engagement. So, there was a thing called engagement in One Tree Hill world Again, planning an engagement is still tailored to planning a wedding (bachelorette party, registry shopping, invitations, church, etc. - I mean, otherwise, what would "planning an engagement" mean?). Who gets engaged if they're not ready to get married? lol. Where's the logic in that? That's just two dumb ppl in love wanting aimless celebration (more with peyton; cause luke's proposal was not aimless - but peyton's "yes" would have been); it's not two adults ready to get married - being engaged in such a way (1 ready for marriage straight away, and not the other) is irresponsible, and immature; it would highlight the juvenile shadow of their age.

lol yes, I'm just saying that they can actually wait while they are engaged. And there's more to being engaged than just planning the whole wedding. I think when you get engaged, you become committed to your partner. So it's like an agreement that they will get married someday. I think this is more of a culture difference thing for me, because in our country some people remain engaged for years, some because they don't have the money or some because they just feel now isn't the right time (either they're so successful or somebody on their family died or whatever reasons they can think of). But still, they are engaged.

And please don't trust what I said, I barely remember the exact words. But I'm sure it's something like that. lol

I'm just saying that they can actually wait while they are engagedWaiting isn't the problem; it's having the intention to marry - someday doesn't mean soon. Peyton and Luke would have fought soon enough if Peyton said yes all those years ago. Cause again, Luke wanted to know right away "when would you like to get married peyton sawyer". and like I already said, Peyton wouldn't have had a decent answer for him back then, and it would have eventually fueled fights. Remember, it was years till peyton realized she was ready ("someday is now!" s5e12). I truly believe luke wouldn't have waited that long before fights erupted (he would have wondered if peyton wanted to marry at all when he started to notice that there were no plans being made). Even if Peyton agreed to be engaged for an "X" number of years, Luke had every intention on marrying soon, and someday doesn't mean soon. (To haley: "I see the 3 of you and I want what you have").

abs07 seems like you only view things with a Leyton perpective and thats perfectly fine.
It wasnt only in S1, I forgave Peyton for that. It was the S3 kiss and the confession that I cannot get over.
Noone asked you to get over the Nathan/Brooke thing. But really you know that wasnt nearly as bad as what Peyton did to Brooke TWICE!


Babe, read my comment again. I didn't see anything but depth in leyton when I was watching s4. It was when I watched it from the beginning through to s3 that I saw something special in them. So Leyton wasn't engraved in me at all till I watched it all from the beginning & s3e16 is when I fell in love with leyton. It was the action that caught my eye in s3 finale/4; not leyton.
I did read your comment maybe you ought to read my comment again. I said since you started watching around the time when Brucas was breaking up and Leyton getting togther...you obviously felt more for them. You dont have to ship them but it does influence your opinion a bit.
You might be different and I might be completely wrong, but I think the timing of the show has alot to do with who you ship.

Brooke saying that meant that she was willing to give up everything for Lucas, and in the same episode they showed, Peyton not willing to leave anything for Lucas. Kinda ironic...no?

kellyerin87- Then, dont you think everything Mark has done for Leyton is to please Leyton fans and in the end its going to be Brucas?
I cant believe what you just said....it doesnt even make sense. EVERYTHING on the show is to please fans...and everything has a meaning behind it. She also said "what about love mom" and she also told Lucas that when she broke up with him she started to invest alot of her time in her clothes to amend her broken heart and after that night with Lucas she said that "Im in" and "Im ready to take it to the next level" To me that meant that she is still not over him, but she knew that he was gonna go to Peyton and that broke her heart so she went back to work again.
Also thats not the only hint that shows Brooke still has feelings for Lucas...when the adoption lady asks her about Lucas she freezes and has a look on her face and you could tell she has feelings for him.

abs07 You can try to defend Peyton's "someday" all you want but truth of the matter is, that it was yet another failed attempt from Mark to make LP look epic. There was absolutely no need for her to say "someday." Like brattynemz said Engagement is "an agreement that they will get married someday"
So what if it was out of the blue, like LPers say that they've always loved each other and always wanted to be together so what was the harm in getting engaged?
Peyton saying "someday" was soo not realistic she pined for him, cried over him like a little girl, broke her best friends heart twice and then couldnt say 'yes' to him? That is NOT realistic. I agree, you need more than love to build a marriage, but they were not getting married they were getting engaged...thats period where couples build on things.

saBRUCAS... Brucas fans always talk about these "Brucas moments" in season 5... but they seem to leave out the REST of what happened. Yeah when the adoption lady asked Brooke about Lucas she froze, but she ALSO said, "oh we dated back in HIGH SCHOOL, so what?" i'm sorry but Brooke has acknowledged COUNTLESS times that her and Lucas were ONLY back in high school and that they're not relevant anymore... if you can't see that then i'm sorry but you're blind. even in that same episode, after Lucas kissed Brooke (while he was feeling LOST because of PEYTON, i might add), Brooke said to him "this ISN'T high school anymore..."! those are just a couple of the MANY times she has made comments about them being over throughout season 5. And no, i don't think Mark has made everything about Leyton to please the fans... the difference between what he's doing with Leyton, and what he's doing with Brucas is that we see Leyton throughout the ENTIRE SHOW! Leyton has been his MAIN focus... while Brucas just has these little side scenes together every now and then (most of which, they are usually talking about Peyton!). So yes, Leyton has been the couple that the show has worked around, not Brucas. So call me crazy, but Mark wouldn't work the entire storyline of the show around Leyton, JUST to make the Leyton fans happy. That's what he's doing with Brucas... which is why we get these FEW random scenes with them every now and then, in the middle of all the LEYTON action. it's no secret that Mark has mentioned in MANY interviews that LEYTON is the couple he wants... so why would he just throw Leyton in the show (and make them the main focus) just to please the fans, when he's the one that wants Leyton too? it's the opposite, he's said many times that he doesn't want Brucas fans to feel like he's discounting the energy that Brucas had... which explains their scenes together and the "signs" that you all see to make you THINK that there may still be feelings there... even though we all KNOW that the romantic feelings are gone!

brucas would still be here of peyton had just been a good friend and stayed out brucas's realationship
i mnean when she was with jake she forgot about lucas so it is when she doesnt have anyone else that is when she comes back to lucas!!!!

jennifer_02, what are you talking about?? Peyton did not "forget about Lucas when she was with Jake", incase you forgot, she LEFT JAKE to go BACK TO LUCAS because she still loved him! so the fact that you say Peyton only goes back to Lucas when she has no one else is just flat out not true. the WHOLE time Peyton was with Jake, she still loved Lucas, which is why at the end of the day, she CHOSE HIM, even when she DID have someone else... Jake! And Brucas would not still be here if it weren't for Peyton coming between their relationship. The whole point of Brucas officially ending things was that when Whitey was making his speech (in season 4) about the love between him and his wife, both Brooke and Lucas both acknowledged that he WASN'T talking about the love that Brucas had. So even if Peyton hadn't been an issue with them, that STILL means that Brucas' love wasn't strong/true enough to last! The fact that Lucas "had an on-going affair with Peyton behind Brooke's back" (Brooke's words to Peyton in season 4, not mine), says that Lucas wasn't completely happy with Brooke... that's not Peyton's fault! i think Brucas fans need to quit playing the blame game and just accept the fact that it is what it is, Brucas is over, it doesn't matter if you think you can blame it on other people (which you can't), what matters is that they're done. and blaming their split on other people is not only totally inaccurate, but it isn't going to bring Brucas back either!

haha you go kellyerin87! couldn't have said it better myself! the fact that people blame Peyton for Brucas' split is just ridiculous! just because you don't like Leyton doesn't mean you can blame them for Brucas not being together, Brucas isn't together because their love wasn't STRONG ENOUGH to last! and Leyton IS together because their love WAS STRONG ENOUGH to make it out of high school... simple as that.

Kellyerin87- Do you even read my posts or just start writing rubbish after readin the first sentence. Whats your point? that all of s2 and s3 and most of s4 and most of s5 was just to please Brucas fans? Im thinking you watched s5...so you should know that there were MORE BL scenes than Leyton scenes. Maybe Mark has a brain and he doesnt want to give away his ending. And maybe he does want BL to be endgame.
You seem to miss what they show us and just believe the what you want. Ever thought that Brooke only says those things to remind herself that she cant do that to Peyton. When she said we're not in high school anymore..she also said I cant do this to Peyton. She is a good friend and thats what good friends do. They dont go behind their best friends back!...I know wierd!
If they were just "high school" why would she have that pause and why wouldnt she just say it. It was put in for the audience to see that Brooke may still have feelings for him. S5 was just as much for Brucas as it was for Leyton and Lucas/Lindsey because Lucas dreams about all three girls and considers all three of them. Just because he chose Peyton doesnt mean they are going to be endgame. Remember "you dont choose love...love chooses you"

It was the S3 kiss and the confession that I cannot get over.
Noone asked you to get over the Nathan/Brooke thing. But really you know that wasnt nearly as bad as what Peyton did to Brooke TWICE We're gonna have to just agree to disagree on that cause your POV is way off for me, and obviously mine is off 2 you. No way do I think s3 is the same as s1, obviously you do. No way do I think telling the truth the second time around is a betrayal. Peyton had no intention of stealing lucas. She wanted to be honest with her friend to try and avoid making the same mistakes she made in the past. and it blew up in her face. Nuff said.

I said since you started watching around the time when Brucas was breaking up and Leyton getting togther...you obviously felt more for them.saBRUCAS, you can't tell me how I felt, lol. I felt nothing. I saw them as a deep couple, nothing more. I really only watched bits and pieces of s4 (more action is what I remembered if anything, and I saw snippets of leyton that I didn't even really remember till I watched the show from the beginning through to the end). I never saw brucas breaking up; I saw the limmo accident and that was it. That was the first scene I saw of the show (s3e22). You can believe me or not, lol. I dunno what else to tell you. I never had leyton on my radar. As far as I knew they coulda been having a fling. I paid no attention to them until I watched season 1. When I saw them together in the beginning, then they jumped out at me. It was Naley that gave me goosebumps when I saw my first episode (s3e22) cause you can hear her love in her aching voice.

Brooke saying that meant that she was willing to give up everything for Lucas, and in the same episode they showed, Peyton not willing to leave anything for Lucas. Kinda ironic...no? I'm not saying you shouldn't take brooke's words into account, but those words are irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things, cause she broke up with the guy; she didn't wanna be with him anymore. Again saBRUCAS, those words are hypothetical. If her and luke were meant to be, if their love didn't fizzle out (IMO) and she had to choose between her career and luke, she would have chosen luke. She didn't even enjoy it: she gave it to Victoria cause she realized there's more important things in life than money. So it's not only luke she would have given it all up for, it would have been for herself as well. Peyton would have given it up if she'd known it would have meant the end of her and luke ("If I knew that saying I wasn't ready meant we wouldn't be together, I would have said yes"). Leyton were NINETEEN. Remember that. Peyton was smart enough to realize love is not enough to build a marriage. You and I can keep going on back and forth about who loves lucas more, but again, this is coming down to interpretation of words/actions of our fav characters, so let's close this portion and once again, agree to disagree.

when she broke up with him she started to invest alot of her time in her clothes to amend her broken heart and after that night with Lucas she said that "Im in" and "Im ready to take it to the next level" To me that meant that she is still not over him, but she knew that he was gonna go to Peyton and that broke her heart so she went back to work again. No, brooke started investing more time in her clothes in season 3. While she almost with/with lucas. She got as far as Rogue Vogue, coming up with her name, clothes over bros, etc. Again, we don't stand on the same page with brooke's words about luke in 505. Brucas' kiss reopened old wounds for brooke (cause luke was her first love and she remembered for a moment what happiness she felt 4 a time) and it made her realize how alone she felt. How cold her business made her feel. That's it. So again, lol, we'll agree to disagree.

when the adoption lady asks her about Lucas she freezes and has a look on her face and you could tell she has feelings for him. Brooke told lucas she would probably always love him. but by 408, they admitted it wasn't that epic love whitey described he had with camilla. Brucas will always care for one another ("I do love you brooke davis" 6.01 in his dream). I won't dispute that. But the feelings are not a romantic form that could fuel a real relationship anymore. Brucas know they don't work. They tried twice to be sure of it! If you can't see that (despite your love for them) I can only say we'll agree to disagree, again! hehe.

yet another failed attempt from Mark to make LP look epic. There was absolutely no need for her to say "someday." Like brattynemz said Engagement is "an agreement that they will get married someday" and as I said, Luke had NO intention of having a "someday" engagement. He wanted what Naley had and wanted marriage sometime soon. Peyton didn't. She would have been lying to herself if she got into an engagement if she wasn't even ready for marriage. God knows if I wasn't ready for marriage anytime soon, I wouldn't say yes to my boyfriend because I loved him. That's just naïve. and to you, the whole someday thing may be a "failed" attempt at leyton being epic. But please stop stating things like they're facts. It's your opinion, remember that. for leyton fans, leyton's story has been epic as of late.

they've always loved each other and always wanted to be together so what was the harm in getting engaged? Because getting engaged is a huge step. Getting engaged means you're ready to get married. Dictionary says: "a mutual promise to marry; a pledge to take someone as husband or wife." Peyton wasn't ready to make that promise. So whether you wanna make the importance of the connection of "engaged" to "married" or not, the connection is there - and very prominent - just "being engaged" isn't enough. It's irresponsible for ppl to get engaged if one of them has no intention of getting married anytime soon. To me, THAT'S unrealistic.

Peyton saying "someday" was soo not realistic she pined for him, cried over him like a little girl, broke her best friends heart twice and then couldnt say 'yes' to him? That is NOT realistic Pining for someone does not mean you're ready to get married! Common saBRUCAS. Again, love is not enough. You keep saying you know that but your arguments keep coming back to questioning peyton's love for luke when she said "someday". Engagements are so under-defined. Your relationship should be well established and built BEFORE you get engaged. The engagement should be the extra slack of time to put the finishing touches on a relationship. Ppl DATE to build their relationship, they don't get engaged to build it. That's crap in my opinion. That's why so many marriages break up; because ppl are naïve enough to think that a relationship can magically repair itself when they get engaged. Leyton had only seen eachother THREE times in that past year that they dated and had grown apart exchanging only few e-mails going days without talking. Is that grounds for an engagement??? Obviously we're not gonna agree on this either cause you have a different definition of engagement so we'll leave it at that.

we get these FEW random scenes with them every now and then, in the middle of all the LEYTON action Only thing i'll respond about that is I wouldn't say brucas' scenes are random. Mark has ended the brucas relationship indefinitely (he said the triangle is OVER as we all know), but he has still written brucas as very important ppl in eachother's lives and that's never gonna change.

Whats your point? that all of s2 and s3 and most of s4 and most of s5 was just to please Brucas fans I don't think that's what she meant. S2/3 was a journey. and brucas only had vital scenes in 401/3&8 - rest few scenes here and there weren't as dynamic to the tone of the show. So that is not most of season 4. That's about a third of it, lol. Mark did vocalize however, that when Luke makes his final choice, that he'd keep luke in the other 2 girls' lives to "keep everyone happy". I don't think there were more brucas scenes in s5. There were more leyton scenes compared to brucas in the first half and more brucas scenes than leyton toward the end. But whatever, that's irrelevant, heh. Luke was there for brooke and it was great, but he also was flirting with the past; in other words, hiding his heart: "I know that I have been all over the place" - Luke. So 601 was partially a tribute to brucas as mark's said he'd never downplay what they had. But luke had a final choice to make.

And maybe he does want BL to be endgame. Maybe he does, but I won't ignore his words when he made it clear that the triangle is over. I still like to keep all possibilities open till the end though :)

If they were just "high school" why would she have that pause and why wouldnt she just say it. It was put in for the audience to see that Brooke may still have feelings for him. That was to provide sufficient evidence for the final trifecta in the end. As mark said, he would never downplay what brucas had, so he showed that brucas do still care for one another, but after lucas truly thought about it (601) he realized those feelings would mostly likely never be romantic again.

Peyton doesnt mean they are going to be endgame. Leyton is not set in stone to be endgame. I won't pretend they are. Mark said the triangle is over and luke made his final choice. That doesn't mean Leyton is endgame though. It does however mean it's less likely that luke will go and choose brooke or lindsey in the end. But possibility will always be there till the end.

Remember "you dont choose love...love chooses you" See many brucas fans took this as a stab to luke's choice of peyton. but he chose to be with her, not to love her. That quote for me, solidifies leyton because over the years, despite luke's claims of wanting to be with different ppl, his love for peyton remained. Luke thought that he had a choice when he chose peyton, but it was simply about giving in and humbling himself to the truth that he and peyton are meant to be (at least for now, to be fair). That's why Gus said that love finds you, you don't find love. Destiny, what's written in the stars is the last 5 seasons (while leyton weren't together, forces screamed in their favor - signs throughout the seasons that I wrote about) That's how I interpreted it.

this debate is REALLY HEATED!
i recon it should be brucas

omgosh abs07, you write so much! ill def read what you said about what i wrote but after the SATs are over! haaahh. ugh, so much stress!

saBRUCAS i'm sorry but your responses are just ridiculous at this point... you say that i only see what i want to see, and i feel the exact same way about you. even though Brucas may have had more scenes TOGETHER in season 5, you can NOT deny that the WHOLE 5TH SEASON was about Lucas/Peyton/Lindsey... i'm sorry but that's just a fact. I don't really know what else to say to you, if you can't see that Brucas is over then i'm sorry but in my opinion, you're blind. AND your comment about "you don't choose love, love chooses you"... that comment is referring to his love for PEYTON! that quote just solidified the fact that as much as he was trying to deny his love for Peyton in season 5, in the end he realized that he can't help who he loves, and that's why he CALLED PEYTON and proposed to her AGAIN!

at least sum1 writes small comments lol

this debate will always be heated even after the show ends. You can explain Leyton to me and I respect your opinion but I am never gonna see Leyton as an epic couple or stuff like that and I find them boring but that is just me and I would really appreciate if you didn't tell me I am wrong and then try and prove why I am wrong because this is my view but i do respect your guys opinion so I think you should do the same.

i do respect Brucas fans' opinions... it's just when certain Brucas fans start to disrespect me and my opinions that i start getting defensive! but yes i agree, we're NEVER going to agree on the two couples so we shouldn't be trying to change the other ship's mind because we all know that's just not going to happen! :)

nope never but i am the same way when some one disrespects my opinion i get like but you will never see me do that I do jump in and make peace when the disrespect goes to far.

dermer, your opinion is fine that you find them boring or that you don't see them as an epic couple. it's when we delve into details, events and characters that begin the debates begin...

i dont mean any disrespect to anyone i jus want to post my opinions and read others

i have alot to say but i'm just gonna stick with this..

regarding saBRUCAS saying this.."You can try to defend Peyton's "someday" all you want but truth of the matter is, that it was yet another failed attempt from Mark to make LP look epic. There was absolutely no need for her to say "someday."" how is there no need?? it set the tone and the plot for all of season 5 regarding Leyton and Lincus! i have alot more to say, but i'm just leavin it at this.

i think it should be brucas cause peyton said NO to lucas wen he proposed to her before she had her chance now its brookes chance. brooke used to be all about physical stuff but she has changed and shes a lot nicer and mature now

just for the record... Peyton did not say NO to Lucas' proposal. her EXACT WORDS were... "i'm not saying no, i'm saying not now, i WANT to marry you someday"! just because she wasn't ready then doesn't mean that she was saying "no" or that she didn't want to marry him. i mean they were only 19 for crying out loud, i wouldn't be ready to get married (OR engaged for that matter) at 19 either, no matter how much i loved someone. in my opinion Peyton was totally valid in all of her reasoning for wanting to wait!