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Gotham City has always been a fictional concept embodying the darker undercurrents of American metropolises, capitalism, and government, quietly lurking in the backdrop of our public consciousness as a reminder that prosperity is fleeting and our primary salvation derives from harnessing our willpower as a people. FOX’s hour-long drama 

Gotham is our latest look at the city that would mold Bruce Wayne into Batman, and like its eponymous city, the show is at once nihilistic and claustrophobic; characters operate in close quarters throughout an urban, Hobbesian sprawl filled with murderers, crime bosses, corrupt police officers, and flawed vigilantes.

Perhaps no character embodies the ruthlessness of Gotham as perfectly as Oswald Cobblepot, the budding criminal mastermind who will one day become The Penguin. The character is played by an exceptional Robin Lord Taylor, who brings a schizophrenic and manic urgency to the role. Taylor cuts deep to give us a spine-chilling performance of the deformed Machiavellian criminal, adept at playing everyone against each other. He is sadistic in action, but also extremely sympathetic, and at times, even likable, a testament to Taylor’s range. We called up the actor to discuss the golden age of television, Freud, and effective manipulation tactics.

Even just a few years ago, a show as dark as

probably couldn’t have gotten made, let alone picked up by a network like FOX. What do you think has changed in the industry?

I think the prevalence of quality shows on television, like Breaking Bad, coupled with the binge watching phenomenon that we’ve seen has pushed network TV to take bigger chances with their programming. I feel like TV has kind of hit a plateau in terms of the subject matter networks can do. There’s more of an interest in the public for dark storylines and mature themes.

What are some of the challenges of making a show as stylized as Gotham?

The main challenge is nailing the look of the show. The show is called Gotham, because it’s the city that’s the main star of the show. The city itself, and the people within the city, are so important to the look. I don’t know of any other show that looks quite like ours. It can be challenging setting up the camera shots and the scenery and making sure everything looks cohesive and we’re all in the same world together. It’s a big shift, but I think we’re nailing it.

You have to embody the comic book vibe and the nitty gritty violence, while incorporating comedy.

Definitely. There is the trap we could fall into where it could just be darkness after darkness, but you need those moments of levity and I think we find those with Donal [Logue]. He brings so much of that needed humor, that tongue and cheekiness that really takes the show to a different level and lightens things up for those minutes when he’s around. It’s very necessary I think to keep the show well rounded and not just one note.

What is Gotham to you as a concept and how do you think it has related to America’s political and social culture over the years?

The Batman series and a lot of other comics, including Superman, came out following WWII, which was this incredibly dark time in both American and world history. Superheroes were created because you wanted to feel safe, like there was someone out there looking out for you. In terms of Gotham City itself, what I love about the show is that it shows how this city has formed all of these people and how we’re all shaped by our environments and we all make choices depending on where we grew up, where we’re living, and what challenges we’re faced with. I think Gotham is a place where the darker side of humanity has taken over, and yet there is still hope and something we can hold on to and believe will carry us through.

And I think even now, with the collapse of all these Midwestern cities and the lingering effects of the 2008 financial crisis, the concept of Gotham is something that’s in the public consciousness all the more, especially given the fact that most Americans are fed up with politicians, corruption, and greed.

Congress has what, a 12% approval rating? Which is the lowest I think it’s ever been! So you can see that people are fed up with politics and we try to touch upon that in our show: the total ineffectiveness of our political system. The political system in Gotham resonates with people because I feel like they see that in their actual lives as well.

The person that immediately comes to mind is Ben McKenzie, who plays Captain Gordon. The relationship between Gordon and Oswald is so fun to play because it’s very complex. They both need each other and both of their lives are on a similar trajectory, they’re both navigating the world in order to establish themselves as major players. Even though Gordon is on one side of the fence and Penguin is on the other, even from the pilot both of their lives are very intertwined. In Episode 6, Penguin tells his mom he’s met a new friend and I truly believe he thinks of Gordon as a real friend. There are only two people in Gotham City that Penguin trusts and they’re Jim Gordon and his mom.

It’s pretty interesting that the most distrustful character in Gotham feels most comfortable around the most honest man in Gotham.

Exactly. Penguin is constantly scheming, and I know he’s looking to exploit that relationship, but I know at the same time he really does believe it’s a real friendship. And then the last person I’d have to say who’s fun to work with is Jada Pinkett Smith. Their relationship is also really fun to play because she starts off as a motherly figure to him, she taught him everything he knows in order to get by in Gotham City, and he uses it to betray her. But they’ll still always have that connection. Jada brings a lot of those fantastic comic book aspects to the show that’s so important.

Oh, definitely. I don’t think you’re off base at all. There’s certainly a Freudian concept of the son learning everything from the mother and then using it against her to make his own life and assert himself as an adult.

How did you go about bringing your character from the screen?

I grew up with both the television show and watching Burgess Meredith and Danny Devito in Batman Returns. So those were always part of my life. What I drew upon from their performances was the sheer amount of fun both of those actors brought to their characters, so I wanted to make that a part of my characterization of this incarnation of Penguin. But I have to give most of the credit to Bruno Heller and Danny Cannon. When I auditioned, I didn’t even know what I was auditioning for, and the scene I was reading for was a fake scene. It wasn’t until the very last minute where I found out I was reading for the Penguin and at that point I’d made all my choices. Everything I did subsequently was all there on the page; the characterization was so clear and we were all on the same page from the beginning in terms of where we wanted the character to come from, how he spoke, and how he presented himself.

What are some lessons in manipulation you’ve taken away from Penguin?

It’s not as though I didn’t know this at first, but it’s been reinforced through the show: you catch more flies with honey than you do with poison. If you are nice to people and present yourself in a kind way, you immediately get more people on your side and are able to get further in the world. People will be much more willing to help you. Penguin presents himself very politely to everyone he interacts with, knowing that’s how you get people on your side so they support you.