Angelica_AW "A girl that deals with the bad inside herself and learns by the end of the movie" I like characters that learn and change by the end of the story. Which is kinda funny, because I love Aurora. :P

maryksand Whatever issues I might have with certain princesses are primarily related to writing and the ways their characterization is structured and presented to the audience. I don't mind either flaws or ven excessive perfection. There is nothing wrong with Belle's entire lack of flaws, but it will never stop being problematic that every other character in the movie had to be established as inferior to her in order to highlight her special snowflake status and a presumed moral/intellectual superiority. It is problematic that Snow White doesn't respond to any outer factors in a manner that would be at least a vaguely outlined indication of her having actual human emotions. It is problematic that Tiana's entire storyline revolved around bouncing around the forest in a frog form which made her quite a boring character despite her immensely valuable and admirable qualities that I will always appreciate and look up to. To put it bluntly, biased hate against the princesses has nothing to do with constructive, objective and reasonable observation of their flaws (i.e saying that a character is a "dumb spoiled brat" or "sits around and does nothing but waits for her prince to come and save her" doesn't contribute to insightful examination of legitimate issues regarding the princesses' personalities) and a bigger picture needs to be considered as well as the context of the story and last but not least - the writing and how organic and carefully constructed it is.

AudreyFreak edit: sorry so long, I cant summarize for crepes. I tend to dislike the overly flawed ones because I admire characters who deal with problems better and have just better attitudes, because I want to improve myself and attitude. I don't think Cinderella is perfect at all. she reacts to things more realistically than Snow does, as mary pointed out (not that people can't be like her). Plus she got too rash about the duke coming and gave herself away which almost was her downfall. And she's ALWAYS called a doormat (which she isn't, she's just being wise but whatever). She's the best role model if you ask me, cuz she's realistic AND has a great attitude. Belle has good traits but like Snow, I don't think she is all that realistic in ways- in fact she's the least flawed heroine. If Snow White isnt realistic, you have to admit Belle isn't either. And Mulan? Well, living up to her standards is near impossible. I do like Merida more than Ariel, though, because Merida does something almost no heroines do- she confesses what she did and accepts blame for it. however, I dislike her in the beginning for sure, and sadly that is the Merida people like, if they like her at all. Rapunzel is a great heroine superficially, but as I pointed out in my article, she's actually just good in theory, not in practice. She's defiant against someone she believes is truly trustworthy and loving, admits leaving will hurt her mom and does it anyway (not cuz she knows she's being abused), and ignores the fact that Flynn is as guilty of crime as Gothel I think she has a great personality, but her movie was poorly written and emotionally manipulative. I prefer Punz to Meri but I don't like that Rapunzel gets excused from not changing or accepting accountability (in fact, her defiance and double standards are shown as GOOD), while Merida, who repents her cruel selfishness, does not. It's simply cuz Punz's movie is "cute" and Merida's is dark and realistic, where there's no loopholes for bad actions, unlike Punz's, who's world is very similar to Ariel's in the sense you can get rewarded without repentance. I also don't like that people exaggerate Ariel being a great role model cuz of her flaws. why admire someone for being flawed (everyone is, it doesn't make her unique)? Isn't the whole point of a role model because they have traits you want to emulate? That's why I think Aurora and Snow are better role models than they're given credit for- they have their flaws (bossy, overconfident, too trusting; shy, indecisive, socially awkward) but are strong women. Their strength isn't in wielding swords or talking back to people- it's more subtle, lies in their positive attitudes, which sometimes is way harder to achieve than fighting a bad guy! And I don't think Snow white reacting so cheerfully makes her bad. And poor Tiana- like Mulan she is respected, but unlike Mulan, she isn't as popular. She isn't a "fun" princess like Ariel or Jasmine, or glamorous like Belle. She's a workaholic, acts like a stern parent. People tend to prefer rebellious free spirits than ones who act their age or older. I think that's unfair. Tia has good traits and I don't blame her for working hard. and what's so bad about being serious? She still had a sense of humor, and not everyone is hyper or spontaneous. (But I agree she's boring as a frog.) But of course, each has at least one trait or lesson we can glean from. I love this sort of discussions. ;D

maryksand ^ Rapunzel was willing to show acceptance of Flynn's flaws because she was not a judgmental type and she had been putting up with her "mother"'s abuse for her entire life untill finally gaining an ability to stand up against it. Flynn was not malicious, Gothel was. Flynn's thieving, though not in any way admirable, was limited to stealing superficial things, not people and nor did he ever systematically and continuously abuse anyone for selfish purposes. In addition to that, he was willing to acknowledge and deviate from his destructive life style and revaluate and reconsider his priorities turning his life around entirely despite coming from nothing and having to essurance of perspective in regards to what to do next and how to achieve stability after years on the run, all prior to figuring out Rapunzel was the lost princess. Gothel on the other hand was not only unwilling to examine her excessively destructive and deliberately malicious behaviour but crossed the line into physical abuse (putting Rapunzel in chains) and murder by the end. There is no way the extent of Flynn's wrongdoings and Gothel's overflowing cruelty can be compared. People love Ariel and Mulan because they rebelled against the societal norms and specifically designed concepts they considered unconstructive and restrictive. I do agree, however, that punching people in faces is not what makes a good role model an consider the classic princesses to be admirable in their pwn unique way too (I'll never get behind Snow White but can see where her appeal comes from).

shanyuisboss I do not like perfect princessess, I prefer the ones with flaws like Mualn and Pocahontas.

rhythmicmagic Before anything else, why does everyone say Belle has no flaws? She is an intellectual snob, she goes back on promises and doesn't see things through. She isn't always committed to what she does. She suppresses her feelings and won't open up to people. She could have told Gaston she doesn't want to be with him, but instead is- as I said before- and intellectual snob and speaks in terms he won't- and she knew he wouldn't- understand. Sure, she does lack some flaws, but she sure as heck has them. AudreyFreak- Definitely agree that Cinderella is realistic, but I would say that Mulan, while heroic, is not entirely unrealistic because she has insecurities and flaws just like anyone else. Sorry, but I basically completely disagree with everything you said about Rapunzel. She [i]was[/i] obedient and respectful to Gothel. She was patient, she followed the rules, I might even say she was more obedient than most children are to their parents. It was only when she realized that Gothel was planning on [i]never[/i] letting her out that she became desperate enough to actually disobey and leave. And yes, that is unhealthy. While she was unable to be exposed to normal life for the average person, Gothel left and went to buy things from other places, so Rapunzel had to figure out that there were others who were not kept in a tower. And even then, Rapunzel was planning on returning. If anything, she was too beholden to Gothel. Comparing the way Merida and Rapunzel treat their mothers is like comparing apples and oranges. While Elinor was a loving mother who subjected Merida to everything she didn't like out of genuine love and protection, Gothel was a kidnapper who abused and damaged Rapunzel's psyche far more than most of us can begin to comprehend. Merida's disrespect and disobedience of Elinor was just that, disrespect and disobedience. Rapunzel's moment of rebellion at the end against Gothel, which occurred only [i]after[/i] she discovered Gothel had kidnapped her, mentally abused and brainwashed her to create a psychological tower for Rapunzel and control her, and used Rapunzel her entire life for selfish gain, was a moment of liberation and when she stood up for herself- which, ultimately, is a good thing for her to do, when she [i]did[/i] know Gothel was being abusive. Rapunzel, at that point, knew every bit that Gothel [i]was[/i] abusive and not a loving woman at all. Rapunzel's fight back against Gothel is in no way similar to Merida's defiance against Elinor. Rapunzel's moment at the end is her greatest feat because she is breaking free of the oppression she was subjected to under Gothel, while Merida's acceptance and apology at the end is her greatest feat because she was unwilling to accept her fault and failure. In both cases, the girls were overcoming their greatest weaknesses. And while I do agree with the problematic nature of portraying thievery as acceptable and without punishment (especially when, unlike Aladdin, the theft is not done out of desperation, but simply for material gin and/ or pleasure,) you really can't compare Flynn to Gothel. While Flynn's stealing should in no way be condoned, Gothel kidnapped, abused, and brainwashed Rapunzel, eventually binding her in chains and attempting to forcibly drag her off from the tower, and murdered Flynn. Stealing is bad, bad what Gothel did is undeniably infinitely worse. Interesting points and questions raised, but in the future, I believe these sorts of posts would be better posted to the forum section. Anyway, I prefer a character I can admire to one I can relate to (except in Harry Potter, generally,) but I like my characters to, like Mulan, have realistic insecurities, complexes, and flaws. Ultimately, it's never fun to follow a character that never makes mistakes, first of all there would be no real story, and second of all, it just makes for a less interesting character.

AudreyFreak Oh, I know they can't be compared, but I'm just saying it isn't truly just that Gothel gets punished by Flynn's crimes get excused because he's the handsome, sympathetic love interest and is only seen stealing ONE thing. He's probably stolen a lot but doesn't show repentance. I don't dislike him, I'm just saying it isn't just. But I disagree about Ariel. I've seen a few people online who like Ariel truly for her personality but the vast majority of the time, nope- it's cuz "OMG I LOVE MERMAIDS SHE'S SO CUTE AND PRETTY!!!!!!!" and Mulan "OMG CHICK IS SUCH A HARDCORE BAD-A KICKIN' BUTT YO". ALLLLLways! Rhythmic- I know, sorry. like I said, I dont know how to summarize anything I mean, ever. Lol. And I DO think Mulan is very realistic, I just meant saving a country and successfully become a hardcore warrior is a lot to live up to. And I know Belle has those flaws but... they don't feel like the same realistic kind Ariel or Merida have. In fact you are the only fan I've met who even acknowledges them. She never really makes bad decisions. Everyone I know supports her going into the west wing; they blame the Beast for telling her *not* to go there. And I don't mean Flynn is worse, I just mean you can't let some crimes go unpunished just because a movie emotionally manipulates you into excusing him cuz he's sooo dreamy and charming and is a poor orphan. but I'll stop, I don't wanna trade essays here. haha.

maryksand But Flynn DID pay the ultimate price for his relatively harmless crimes - he died. Willingly layed his life for Rapunzel and thus redeemed himself in every way possible. Gothel was not ready to do anything of the sort seeing as she remained entirely selfish utill the end and even exceeded the initial extent of abuse she had been inflicting Rapunzel with by crossing the line into physical assault and murder. Also while there might be people who enjoy certain princesses due to their surficial exterior the majority of their fans are being analytical and critical of them and capable of highlighting the admirable aspects of their personalities that go beyond mermaid/butt kicker.

AudreyFreak ^but he wasn't killed because of his crimes. Gothel killed him because he got in the way of her plans (so if anything he died for actually being a better person). Mr. and Mrs. Corona didn't seem to care at all that their long lost only daughter was planning to marry a guy who didn't seem to show any remorse for his crimes, which included stealing said long lost only daughter's tiara.

wavesurf What kind of princess do you like more? A girl that deals with the bad inside herself and learns by the end of the movie...or a girl that is almost perfect that deals with the bad around them instead? Um, I'm going to pick the girl who deals with the bad inside herself and learns by the end of the movie. However, if she fesses up sooner... I'll like her/love her for doing that, and if she denies her own wrongdoing, and takes a long time to apologize, I will dislike her. I don't love the girl who is almost perfect ( because no one is "almost perfect," and it's a fallacy to believe you are perfect) that deals with the bad around them instead. Being "seen as being perfect" and only seeing bad things in other people is pure hypocrisy. That girl or character is a hypocrite, and is not a role model. The world is only made up of flawed people. The people ( and thus characters) who believe that they are exceptional and perfect are often the ones with #judgmentalandunkind.

AdelitaI I mostly prefer characters( not just DPs) who are not very flawed. I prefer Miguel over Tulio. Rapunzel over Meg, Pocahontas over Chel, Chien-Po over Yao and Ling.

UnholyNoise "People seem to either hate characters that are full of flaws (ariel merida) or hate characters that are too perfect (Cinderella, belle)" it really isn't like that. belle annoys me because she's a snob, but you're supposed to like her for it. it's not because she's "too perfect." and i don't dislike ariel because she's flawed, that's dumb. she has this constellation of traits that just bug me in general - but also the story never really holds her accountable for the more destructive ones. they're constantly framed in a positive way and none of them cost her anything in the long run. i'd probably feel the same way about merida except there's a learning curve with her: that she's wrong and needs to change is literally canon. personally, i don't have one type i favor over the other - there's so many morally upright "cinnamon roll" - type characters that i'm really drawn to, but also a lot of villains and screwups.