I think that its very wrong! Its cruel and sick!

It depends. I think it's only alright to wear fur if it's necessary, or if you don't have any other real options, like if you live someplace where you can't buy clothes or make your own fabric very easily. The Indians made lots of things out of fur, and no one slams them for it.

Well I was thinking more of todays use of it. Not hundreds of years back when that was their only way of survival. I'm talking more now where people wear it because they think it looks good. Not because they need it to survive.

I understand where you're coming from. But you need to keep in mind that there are places even today where people need it to survive...especially in cold places.

In fashion, it's definitely wrong and cruel and I hate it as much as the next person. But there are a lot of other people out there who need it for other purposes...and the same goes for hunting. We shouldn't slam them because of it. Sorry if I'm preaching to the choir, but it seems like a lot of folks forget that.

There are other materials that you can use if it is THAT cold where you live. Why should we kill animals for their fur when there are other alternatives? And as for hunting? I will admit that there are few people who do hunt for food and that is ok. But the majority of people that hunt in the US do it for entertainment. So that they can hang the heads of deer and other animals on their walls. Then they use the pathetic excuse that the animal is over populating. Bull sh*t. Thats what that is. People are over populating too. Should we go hunt them?

I agree with Dearheart. Fur used for fashion is wrong, but there are people out there who do not have access to any other materials to help them survive.

As for sport hunting, overpopulation is an issue that negatively impacts the ecosystem and I do believe that it should be regulated. If it's necessary to use hunters to do that, so be it. And my personal experience with hunters is that few of them actually take trophies and most of the animals they kill are eaten. I've eaten venison a time or two myself.

I'm actually apathetic on the subject. I'm actually pro-leather, mostly because I'm pro-beef, and I believe, like the Native Americans do, that if you're going to kill an animal, you should use everything it has.

But I don't think it's wrong. I get a lot of crap from some people who yell at me about animal rights, but when I ask them what they think about what's going on in Burma they say "That's in Africa, right? Are people starving there? Well, then, it's OK to eat animals if they're starving."

I believe in fair treatment to animals, and I also believe that we should treat them with dignity and respect. I don't believe in factory farming, or chemical injections. But I'll eat free range chicken, and fair trade beef. Because humans are omnivores. And, like I said, if I'm going to eat their meat, then I'll wear their fur (like in the case of rabbit or venison), so it doesn't go to waste.

But frankly, I'm more concerned with human rights abuses than people wearing fur.

@ fanfly - I know this sounds weird, but THANK YOU for defending the hunters. I personally hate it when people make them out to be these evil, greedy killers who only do it for fun. Anyone who actually knows a hunter knows how untrue the stereotype is. (And that the ecostystem/overpopulation thing has some real substance to it, lol. Hunters aren't idiots, either.)

@ Cinders - You wouldn't happen to be a liberal version of me, would you? xD

Acutually I do know people who hunt. And I still think it is evil. There are such thing as grocery stores. Maybe people should use them. And as for deer hunting? Why do you need deer meat? Do you really need to kill thoes beautiful animals just because you want deer for dinner? And over population is the worst excuse you could use. It just makes you seem heartless.

Venison tastes really good, very tender. I'm not a big a fan of rabbit, but I'll eat it. As for the grocery stores, where do you think they get their meat? An animal dies either way, whether it's in the slaughterhouse or in the woods.

My roommate's dad used to go hunting up in Puyallup here in Washington. She'd bring back venison sausage, and I'd cook it up. I don't hunt myself, but I do fish, and I enjoy it thoroughly. I take pride in the fact that I can catch, clean, gut, and cook my own fillets, if I ever had to do it on my own. We go crab trapping too, which is easy, but oh-so cool. You just leave your trap out there and come back in the morning, and it's full of crabs.

Of course, in Washington, if you catch a female salmon, you have to throw her back. Same with female or baby crabs. It's the law, which exists to protect the population of the species in those waters. And hunters and fishermen know these laws. Hunters don't hunt a species out of season, and fisherman will throw back immature salmon. They have great respect for nature and the environment.

True, hunter's (when it's a hobby, not a job) don't hunt solely because they need food. It's a sport, and it's also very interesting. From what I gather, you can learn a lot about the wilderness when you're out there, as well as learning patience, quiet and, yes, respect for the animals, even the ones you kill.

There are deer all over the place where my Dad lives in Virginia. Part of the reason for that is hunting is outlawed in the woods there, because it's a residential area and the potential for accidents is high. Most of the time, you'll see two or three as roadkill on the side of the road. That's how many are there. With no natural predators, cars become the top of the food chain for them.

Allowing a species to overpopulate is worse than curbing the population. The good of the many outweighs the good of the one. Consider the example of rabbits on an island, with no natural predators. They eat and reproduce and eat and reproduce until the grass and plants can't grow fast enough to sustain their growing food needs, and so many of them end up painfully starving to death until their population gets to a more manageable level, and then the process just repeats, circularly, all over again.

A similar thing is happening with our species, though I'm a consumptionist, which means I don't necessarily think it's our population that's the problem, it's our link.

What's the difference between eating meat bought in a store and meat taken from an animal you killed yourself? They're both dead animal. Just because the deer is prettier than the cow?
And I'm sorry, but overpopulation is not an excuse, it's a reality. When the deer population gets too big it means they start starving, getting sick, encroaching into suburbia where they are hit by cars. They damage the ecosystem by consuming tree seedlings which prevents forest regeneration. They just consume too much vegetation, which results in fewer food sources for other animals and therefore reduces their population. The plain fact of the matter is that there are not enough natural predators to regulate the population like it naturally would be. Hunters do perform a useful act when they kill deer. I'm sorry you find it distasteful but reality is sometimes harsh.

I'm only againt people wearing fur if it was taken from an animal that's endangered, or that it was only killed for its fur. As for the hunting subject, I Love venisin! My husband hunts and it's disappointing when he comes home emty handed, deer season opens up only once a year and he rarely get to go out because he works way too much that he useually misses his chance. I am thoroughly against hunting for sport, say, to gain a trophy or to demonstrate how handy man is with his little devices over other living creatures.

Personally I like fur, I used to hate it, but this past winter I found myself wishing I had a nice warm fur coat, so I can no longer say I'm against it. So long as it's not made from any creature that's endangered, because with such creature there is no excuse and the only reason they are being hunted is so someone can make a profit, it makes my blood boil!

I can never be against hunting so long as every part of the animal is used, and nothing is wasted. Humans eat meat as well as vegitation, we hunt and we kill, its in our nature, and so it is also in our nature to make use of those obtained materials. This will never change, humans are animals to don't forget, this is apart of what we are.

I really don't know what to say. I honestly don't. I just amazes me that so many people can be for killing innocent animals for fashion and for a sport. And think its interesting and fun! Its just disgusting to me! I know everyone doesn't think the same way I do but wow. I mean its cruel! Who care if the animal you MURDER and SKIN is endangered or not. Do you know how many of those small rabbits or minks it takes to make your tacky fur coat! They are so small it takes so many of them that they soon will be endangered! Thats cold and horrible to take part in that. Its an animal! A living creature just like you!! Its terrible......

Rabbits? Endangered? That'll be the day.

If you want to be morally outraged about something, speak out for the victims of genocide, of despotic military regimes, of terrorist bombings, of occupied forces... The people in Sudan, Burma, Israel and Palestine. These are the acts that concern me. Killing animals, whether it be hunting them or in a slaughter house, is far less barbaric than killing people the same way.

I can be morally outraged about anything I want! I love animals and people are murdering them too. The situtation in other countries is horrible too but this is my cause.

Did you know that it takes 60-80 minks to make a fur coat? Or over 100 chinchilla to make ONE coat? Think about that while you sitting in your warm and tacky fur coat.


And you should read this. It tells you about how they kill the animals so you can have your fur coat.

link

It's good that you love animals and that you're passionate about protecting them. That's really cool. But in the end, you have to ask yourself...what matters more to you? Humans or animals?

If you say "animals", then what about your parents and family? They're humans. You love them, don't you? How would you feel if someone came to your country and started killing your neighbors and friends in horrible ways...and your family? And how would you feel if someone ignored that tragedy because they cared more about whales or deer or polar bears or some obscure little fish in the amazon?

Horrible things are happening to people all over the world, and they are all somebody's mother and father, sister and brother, husband and wife. When I think about that, I can't help but put humans at the top of my priority list. We should respect nature and treat animals fairly, yes; but they are not people, and I believe they should never be put on the same level as human lives.

I never said I don't care about humans and what goes in Africa and other poor countries. I grew up with animals and I love them. Just because I aruge with people who do not care what happens to them does not mean I don't care about anything else. I care about animals. That does not make me a bad person.

You're right, I shouldn't have belittled your cause like I did. You can choose your cause and fight hard for it if you want. It's just never been a cause that I could get on board with.

I support saving the habitats of endangered animals. And like I said before, I'm against factory farming, or anything like it that creates poor conditions for farm animals. They do deserve to have a life, but those lives are shorter than ours. The lion doesn't think about the gazelle when she hunts it down. But until that gazelle dies, he's had a nice life in the savanna. I believe farm animals deserve that same life. I also believe that steroids and other chemical treatments are not only bad for the animals, but also for humans that eat them.

Also, I can't be sure, but I was under the impression that to buy or sell mink coats right now was illegal due to their endangered status. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, that one coat you're talking about can go for upwards of $500-$3000. Not many people can afford that. I don't own or wear any fur, though I do have some fake fur that was once mistaken for real fur by someone who had an attitude problem.

I think that's the other reason I'm touchy about it. I've never met anyone that's actually thrown red paint on anyone, but the anti-fur people I have met have been disturbingly militant and judgmental on the subject. While wearing my coat with fake-fur lining, I was scoffed at by an arrogant fellow college student who said "I can't believe you're wearing that." And I said, "What? Synthetic fibers? You're wearing it, too."

It doesn't make me sympathetic to their cause. In fact, it probably caused the opposite.

EDIT: Also, I think link reflects my opinion pretty well. "Fur: It's only cruel to waste it."

Well thank you. And I do respect you veiws too. I believe that everyone has the right to their own opinion. On subjects like this I get very into because I beleive very strongly in it. And even though I strongly disagree with everything everyone has been saying I still have a certian level of respect for all of your opinions. I mean as much as I can because it goes against what I believe in.

I know that minks are endangerd and that it is illegal to hunt them and make coats. But do you think that stops people? Thats most likely why they are endangerd in the fist place.

About how you said a college student said something to you about you fake fure coat, I really can't say much about that. I have never said anything to anyone that is wearing fur but I give them looks. I was walking into a restruant once and two women walked in wearing two floor length fur coats. They looked real but they could have been fake. I have to give them dirty looks though I don't usually say something to someone I don't know.

I guess I can sort of see where your comming from when you said it does not make you sympathetic to their cause. But you also have to understand that this is what we beleive in. Just like the genocide in Africa its one of the many problems in todays socitey that needs to be fixed.

(I'm sorry if I spelled alot of things wrong. Spell checker is not working and I am the worst speller in the world.)

Seeing as I own, and wear, a mink-fur coat, I can hardly think wearing fur is wrong.

I do think the fur industry should be regulated so no endangered species are used, the animals have an as pleasurable life as possible and are not killed in a cruel way.

FYI: I enherited my mink coat from my grandmother, who got it from my grandfather for their marriage. They got married somwhere in the second half on the 1940's. I would never buy a new mink coat, though with a rabbit coat I would be ok.

It takes over 100 rabbits to make one fur coat. And a pleasurable life as possible? They are put in cages with 50 other animals, live in disgusting conditions, most die from those conditions because they are so diseased and terrible. If they don't die from disease or injuries they are electrocuted, poised, have their throats slit, or have their necks broken. Tell me, how is that comfortable? Would you like to live like that? They are not going to change the way they do things. This is the cheapest way. They live and are killed in a cruel and disgusting ways, don't fool your self into thinking its any different. And while you sitting in you warm, comfortable, and ugly fur coat you can think about how many animals were tortured and killed so you can have your coat.

I see wearing fur coats for "fashion" reasons as archaic nowadays. "We club pretty animals for you to wear." sounds very caveman-ish. We have muscle cars, Iphones, and there's name brand purses, shoes, and stuff out there that could fit the bill for high "fashion".

However, for functional reasons I see no problems with it. A motercyclest is slightly more protected from the elements or from falls at slow speeds if they were wearing leather as opposed to polyester. Animial skins react to heat and cold differently than synthetics as well. Animal skin use predates synthetics use. If we were to expand "fur" to sheep wool, then I want to point out that those animals have been selectivly bred to need shearing at regular interavals or else their wool would sufficate themselves.

Read my comment carefully please. I did not say these were the conditions the animals live at the moment. I said that the fur industry should be regulated so that it will become like this.

You want change? Make it happen! Do not talk about how 'they are not going to change things', as long everyone says that things really aren't going to change.

100 rabbits? I'm sorry, but do you know how fast these imals breed? There is virually no danger of them becoming endangered.

Like I said I inherited this coat: should I throw it away so that these animals not only died to make it, but so that they in vain too?

Does it matter if they are endangered or not? You still should not kill them!! There are billions of people out there and its wrong to kill them but its totally ok to kill animals? And yea someone has to do something but with the people like you guys who don't give it a second thought its never going to happen. I am only 16. There is only so much I can do. There has to be more people that support this then we might get somewhere.

And I am not talking about wool. You don't have to kill a sheep to get its wool. A mink and rabbit and a fox you have to kill. They are not specially brought up so they can take the fur. They trap them in the wild and kill them or breed them.

'They are not specially brought op so they can take the fur'

Yes, they are. There are so called 'fur-farms'.

'And yea someone has to do something but with the people like you guys who don't give it a second thought its never going to happen. I am only 16.'

I do give it a second thought. That's why I am a member of a political party that wants to make the living conditions of animals better. Not just animals in the fur-industry, but also for example in the bio-industry.
And I've been a member of that party since I was 13, we collected over 40.000 signatures against animal testing in the cosmetics industry. (40.000 is the amount of signatures you need to get in order for a proposal to get into parliament.) Even when you're 16 you can do something about the things you think are wrong.

'Does it matter if they are endangered or not? You still should not kill them!!'

So we should not kill animals at all? We kill animals for food, we kill them when they are dangerous or when they are eating our crops.

'There are billions of people out there and its wrong to kill them but its totally ok to kill animals?'

Humans and animals have different rights and there are different laws for them. We should treat animals as kindly as possible, but I don't think we should totally stop using them for food or clothing

Personally I wouldn't wear fur, for school I once had to look into what the animals go through in that process and it was horrible (well, I also just don't think it looks nice, but that's not really relevant). I understand the idea of not wasting a part of an animal if you intend to eat it, and I'm not a vegetarian, but not all of the animals used for fur are even what we would consider 'food' animals. Many aren't being caught for food then used resourcefully, they are being caught/bred just for the sake of fashion. For people who have access to faux fur, as well as many other materials that would keep you warm and look nice I do think it's wrong to kill an animal because you think it's corpse looks good, especially in the often inhumane way the fur industry goes about it. I don't think killing animals for food is the same as killing them for clothes (at least not when it's for fashion rather than need/lack of other options). We need food, humans are omnivores, but there is nothing in our programming that means we need to wear fur when we have other materials available to us.

About overpopulation, I do agree that needs human attention, because eventually it will get into a situation where animals are either dying due to numbers anyway, or harming the habitat or food supply of other animals, I just don't think it's ok to use the fur industry as it currently operates, since they go about it in a cruel way. There are more humane ways of keeping animal populations down when necessary.

Also, I don't really like the idea of choosing whether you care about animals or humans. Feeling that humans come first doesn't mean being ok or apathetic about animals being treated badly. It isn't a one or the other situation. Humans in need will always come first for me, but it doesn't take much effort to simply not support an industry that treats animals inhumanely, and I would still be very glad of rulings that at least forced the fur industry to change it's methods and be more closely regulated to ensure the animals were not so cruelly treated. I do believe if it's a case when people lack other options for clothing, or if they were using the animal for food anyway and it wasn't subject to cruel treatemnt/conditions I wouldn't feel the same way about it.

Mermaidtail, a question if you don't mind:

If the fur-industry would treat the animals better and the meat is used for other things, would you still be opposed to using fur?
What I mean is the fur really the problem or the way the industry goes about their business?

In those circumstances I wouldn't wear it myself, but I wouldn't be against it. As I said, I'm not a vegetarian, so it would be hypocritical of me to judge someone for using an animal that had already been killed for me to eat anyway. And assuming it was only with animals that would already be getting used for more necesary purposes like food, and people didn't start killing more of specific (more fur friendly) species to keep up with demand, because if something's fashionable even if it's roots are humane/useful, popularity risks causing a rise in demand. Unfortunately, as it is the animals are treated cruelly, and many are being used just for clothes, so since currently fur as fashion does not have a humane source I do see wearing fur as an endorsement and encouragement of the way the industry currently behaves.

The "meat" left over from the animals in the fur industry is used for food - just not by humans. A few quotes from the article I linked:

"Teresa Platt, director of Fur Commission USA, a nonprofit fur trade association, said many of the animal remains from a fur farm are fed to other domesticated animals.

“Waste is expensive, you try to reduce it as much as possible,” Platt said. “You’d be surprised how much is left over (of pigs).”

So even though humans don’t eat the rest of the animal, it is being eaten by other animals. In addition to providing pelts, the remains yield byproducts like protein meal and mink oil."

...

"The fur industry has a voluntary labeling program called Origin Assured, which assures people buying fur that it is from a country with production regulations and standards.

For someone buying an Origin Assured mink coat, this means they can be confident that the animals were put down humanely, as Platt said gassing is the most common method used for minks.

It’s the rough equivalent of buying certified organic beef or conflict-free diamonds, if you will.

Despite how all of this might seem, I’m not trying to encourage anyone to buy fur.

But for what it’s worth, Platt said beaver makes a great steak."

Part of the problem is that the labeling program that claims to assure fair treatment is voluntary, so of course the places with the more cruel treatments aren't going to sign up. And since it's voluntary, not a law it's effectiveness in discouraging cruelty depends greatly on the majority of buyers both caring and being aware of it in the first place. Also, from what that link said, it only seems to be claiming the animals are put down in ways that are not cruel. The way they are put down is not the only problem. The way many of the animals are kept before that is also very cruel, in fact, it's one of the things I find most unpleasant since it's the more drawn out part of the suffering, and the link made no mention of that program promising humane living conditions, only humane deaths.

Sappp,

So if they are raised in a fur farm it just makes it so much better? Do know what kind of living conditions are in places like that. Its like puppy mill. And I don't think that they raise animals like mink and fox. Those are wild animals.

You give a thought and support animal rights but you think its alright to kill animals for their fur? That there are enough rabbits in this world so why not? Just kill them so you can wear their skin?! Yea really sounds like you support animal rights.

And I do get that we kill animals for food. I am not a vegetarian I will admit. But there has to be a line drawn between killing animals for their fur and for a sport and just throwing away the rest of the bodies and actually killing them to survive. Hundreds of years ago they did hunt to survive, but they used EVERY part of the animal they killed. Thats how they lived. They did not just go shoot a deer and hang its head on the wall and say "look what I shot".

Why do we need animals for clothes? Wool yes because it is shaved off of sheep and doesn't hurt them. We have come so far in technology that we do not have to be walking around wearing animal skins to keep warm. They have synthetic fibers that sever the same purpose as animal fur will.

I think if it's from an animal that's already being killed for food, like a cow, that's okay, because why throw away things we can use. If the animal is only being killed for its fur, that's wrong.

housefrk said exactly what I was gonna say :)

'So if they are raised in a fur farm it just makes it so much better? Do know what kind of living conditions are in places like that. Its like puppy mill. And I don't think that they raise animals like mink and fox. Those are wild animals. '

You may not think they do not breed mink but they do.
The Origin Assured labeling program that Cinders mentioned has guidelines for the housing and killing of the animals.
The guidelines:
- Freedom from hunger and thirst - access to fresh water and a diet for full health and vigour,
- Freedom from discomfort - an appropriate environment with shelter and comfortable rest area,
- Freedom from pain, injury and disease - prevention or rapid treatment,
- Freedom to express normal behaviour - adequate space and facilities, company of the animal's own kind,
- Freedom from fear and distress - conditions and treatment which avoid mental sufferings.

'You give a thought and support animal rights but you think its alright to kill animals for their fur? That there are enough rabbits in this world so why not? Just kill them so you can wear their skin?! Yea really sounds like you support animal rights.'

I do support animal rights - that does not mean I think they should have the same rights as humans. I think their living conditions should be good, that they should not suffer unnecessary and should be killed humanely. That may be something different that what you know from people who care for animal rights, but that does not mean I do not care about it. Just different than you do.

'Hundreds of years ago they did hunt to survive, but they used EVERY part of the animal they killed. Thats how they lived. They did not just go shoot a deer and hang its head on the wall and say "look what I shot". '

This has nothing to do with fur. Hunting is something very different and I think Dearheart and Cinders has said all about hunting I could think off here.

'Why do we need animals for clothes? Wool yes because it is shaved off of sheep and doesn't hurt them. We have come so far in technology that we do not have to be walking around wearing animal skins to keep warm. They have synthetic fibers that sever the same purpose as animal fur will.'

Some people like fur, just like some people like leather.

I don't believe that the animals are treated good. The Origin Assured labeling program may be followed in some places but I'd bet money that is not followed very closely in a majority of places. And to all their guidelines. Bull. Shit. They are trying to sugar coat things so that people will get off their asses about mistreating and murdering animals.

My point in saying that people along time ago used all of the animal is that they did not just kill millions of animals for fur. They survived off of them. They did not walk around in animal skins for the fun of it. That was their clothes. Today we have so many other ways to make clothes. And if you like to wear fur? I honestly don't care. It is tacky and outdated anyway.

And do you really think that all the "farms" treat them humanly and follow those guidelines? Read the articles below. The first one is absolutely terrible. It tells you exactly what they do the animals and I'm sure most of the fur factories do this.

link

^don't think they followed the "guidelines"

link


I get that you think people are superior to animals but do you think that they should have to go through that? That they deserve to be tortured in that way?

'I don't believe that the animals are treated good. The Origin Assured labeling program may be followed in some places but I'd bet money that is not followed very closely in a majority of places. And to all their guidelines. Bull. Shit. They are trying to sugar coat things so that people will get off their asses about mistreating and murdering animals.'

You have every right not to believe the animals are treated good: I however do believe it and would I ever buy something with fur I would be sure that it has the Origin Assured label.

'I get that you think people are superior to animals but do you think that they should have to go through that? That they deserve to be tortured in that way? '

I don't think they should be tortured in any way. That's way I am a supporter of stricter guidelines in the fur industry.

'And if you like to wear fur? I honestly don't care. It is tacky and outdated anyway. '

Lot's of people disagree with you. Besides the fact that people like it, it is also a status symbol.

'And do you really think that all the "farms" treat them humanly and follow those guidelines? Read the articles below. The first one is absolutely terrible. It tells you exactly what they do the animals and I'm sure most of the fur factories do this.

link

^don't think they followed the "guidelines"

link

You're sure most of them do this? Source please?
The links describe the stituation in fur farms in the USA: the Origin Assured guidelines I gave in my previous comment are the guidelines as given by the European Commission. If an European fur farm does not meet these they risk heavy fines or closing.

And forgive my scepticism, but PETA lost my respect when they compared the bio-industry with the Holocaust.

I eat meat so I can't really complain about fur - plus I love leather jackets!

Stricter guide lines? You think they are going to one day say " I think we should treat our animals better"? what they are doing now is the cheapest and most effective way of getting it done. They are all for whats in it for them. They don't care about the animals! All they care about is making money.

You want better sites? OK here. There is one that says about China, Canada, Scotland, and one about Wisconsin. All of them are .org sites. All are from a foundation or animal rights group. I can give you a whole works cited if you want more evidence that they are legit.

link

link

link

link

These are just numbers and basic information about what they do the animals all over the world. Not just in the U.S.:

link

italiangirl976, i actually agree with you. killing animals to turn them into boots bags and belts is wrong. I do see that sometimes hunting is neccesary but i hate the idea of it. i can see hunting to control population and for food i mean i hate it but we do have to eat and with over population affects not only us but also the animals of course if we stop building on everyspot we see and leave some room for the animals then i think that problem wouldn't be as big of a problem. But i do know for a fact there are alot of hunters who hunt just for the game and that litterly makes me sick to my stomach i mean to kill a deer or another animal just to see if you can is heartless and wrong if you did it to a human it would be considered murder and count probably a life sentence but when its an animal its a sport talk about injustice. and using animals like lepords or bears just to make home decorations or coats is just sicking i mean i looks way better on the animla then you and theres no excuse. and no i dont think humans are better than people i mean they like us deserve fair treatment and rights they were here long before us and we should be able to coexist with them they were here first they deserve our respect

I don't have a problem with people wearing fur - its their choice. However, I DO have a problem with the way the fur trade is run. I think that they should carry out the process in a more humane way, by allowing the animals freedom to move around, and killing them in the most painless way possible.

Like Cinders said, I think that as long as you're killing an animal for its meat, you might as well use as much of its body as possible, to stop it going to waste. And I also agree with comments further up saying that endangered animals should be protected from the fur industry.

I agree with a lot of the Animals Rights ideas, but sometimes the supporters can be a bit too forceful and uncompromising. I'm not getting at anyone here, so don't be offended. But I've been criticized, lectured and even insulted by some supporters. I've even heard of particularly passionate activists killing scientists involved in animal testing!! Who wants to be associated with volatile, unstable people like that, who are happy to kill other human beings to save animals?? That kind of behaviour is NOT the way to gain support, in fact, it estranges many people from the cause.

And over-population IS an issue. There are enough cows in the USA to feed the whole world 6 times!! If we don't eat the meat, what else can we do with them?? We can't allow them to keep breeding, or we will become swamped (and the food chain will be messed up), so we would have to kill them anyway.

But personally I think there are much more pressing issues. Millions of people are living on the streets, going without food and clean water. I think we should focus on helping them - their needs are greater by far!!

I am ok with hunting if you do it for food. But if you do it for a sport its disgusting.

And I don't think that animals are better then humans. Yea some maybe because there are a lot of bad people in this world that don't deserve anything at all but I know that humans are above animals. They should still be treated with respect and still have their rights though.

And animals do need our help too. The fur industry is terrible and needs to be controlled. And its not just that either. Have you seen what the Japanese are doing to the dolphins? Or how about how us polluting the ocean killing thousands of animals that live there?

I don't have time to read the debate at this moment but I want to clarify my opinion. I disagree strongly with fur farms and wearing fur for fashion. That is WRONG.

But as someone who lives in an arctic climate I also know that nothing is warmer than fur. I have no issue with people that wear it for the practical purpose of keeping warm when it's -40 and it was harvested humanely.

Whats wrong with synthetic fibers though? They serve the same purpose.

I love fur! And honeslty... Why the hell do you care so much? What about child labor, I would say that that's much worse. And what about animal testing? I bet that a lot of those 'animal-luvrs' use products that are tested on animals. The thing is, they don't think about it as much as when they see fur.

Fake fur contains dangerous chemicals for instance, and it doesn't keep you nearly as warm as a real, expensive fur. It last longer as well, it could last over 100 years.

What we can discuss, it how the animals is treated. Even in Norway, many animals are teated with cruelty. If the government manage to do it right I'm all for it. As I said: I love fur, always have and always will.

Yea I do think about animal testing but THIS debate is about fur so I am arguing about fur. And why do I care? Why do you care about child labor? Or any other problem in today's society? Its wrong and I love animals so yea I do care.

About those "dangerous chemicals" I highly doubt they are very "dangerous". And if it keeps you as warm its not you skin. How would you like it if someone skinned you and wore you skin? You probably wouldn't like it very much would you?

"What we can discuss, it how the animals is treated. Even in Norway, many animals are teated with cruelty. If the government manage to do it right I'm all for it. As I said: I love fur, always have and always will."

What is that supposed to mean? This is discussing how animals are treated. Do you know what torture they go through at the "fur farms"? Its disgusting.

And real fur is tacky anyway. Its out dated. You just look stupid walking around in long, over done fur coats. People think it looks good but it just looks ugly.

The "Dangerous Chemicals" could mean the chemical behavior of the synthetics from heat. Organics burn, inorganics melt. An organic fabric on fire will burn the skin underneath it. An inorganic fabric on fire will melt and fuse with the skin underneath it causing a much more serious burn.

"How would you like it if someone skinned you and wore you skin? You probably wouldn't like it very much would you?"

As the opinion would be post mortem and, therefore, could not occur, the argument is moot.

"As the opinion would be post mortem and, therefore, could not occur, the argument is moot."

I don't really care if its possible or not. What I am saying is that if it could be done would you want it to? What if you were the animal would you want them to do that to you?

If I die, I hope someone will 'wear' my skin. I'm an organ donor and that includes my skin. Skin is mostly used for burn victim and I gladly donate my skin for that.

You are willing and not using it any more when you die but those animals are murdered so that people can wear their fur for fashion not because they were burnt or are in dire need of it.

I read some of the comments above so I'll just state my opinion. *being lazy againx)*

I'm against wearing fur in today's society. Why should an animal be killed just so that a celebrity can wear her fur? Or why should a whale be killed so that we can eat its meat? It is cruel how they use animals to cover their fictional needs!

A subject I'm really sensitive about are the baby seals in Antartica! They actually kill them when they're from 2 weeks to 2 months old to take their white fur. They drag their skin out while some of hem are still alive and coscious!! And then they let the body rotter! Just to take their money! I'm the only one finding this beyond horrible??

Of course I'm not talking about Indians or Eskimos! They (used to) live in balance with nature; animals kill other animals to survive but just as many as they need to achieve this, people have this right.

So yeah I'm against it! And there's no way I can change my mind!

Hey, I know I haven't been saying much in this debate, but i've been popping my head in now and again and I just wanted to say I think this is one of the more interesting debates going on here. It's civil, and both sides have very good arguments, so kudos to everyone!

Only if the animal was not only killed for it's fur, made use for other parts of it's body such as food, jewelry, and clothing.

@Italiangirl. This discussion involves animal cruelty, that is why I brought it up. I thought that no one could misunderstand that one, but clearly I was wrong. And I am talking about people in general, who hates fur and animal testing so much.

And what the hell? " How would you like it if someone skinned you and wore you skin? You probably wouldn't like it very much would you? "
You 'animal-lovers' take things too far. We are not discussing human skin, we are tlaking about fur. I hope to God you know the difference.

That was exaclty what I was saying, you don't even listen to our arguments, it seems to me like you are living in a box, where you can not hear other things then what you want to hear. Listen to what I am saying, THEN we can have a real discussion.

Taste is relative, and therefore not an argument.

I know what this discussion is about, obviously, since I am the one who started it. And killing animals for there fur is not cruelty to animals? This debate right here is not about testing or child labor. It is about FUR. If you read the question and most of the comments, they are about fur, not testing. I saw a question for that though so if you want to discuss that then that would probably be the best place to. This debate is about how in fur farms animals are stuffed into small cages with a bunch of other animals and live in disgusting conditions and are killed in ways like having their necks broken or electrocuted. Sometimes though when they are electrocuted they are not dead yet so they are skinned alive and feel everything. Usually that is considered animal cruelty. I really didn't think anyone could misunderstand that but I was clearly wrong....

Yes I know we are not taking about human skin. I guess I have explain because you CLEARLY don't understand. Have you ever heard of the expression "Walk a mile in my shoes"? Kinda says it all.......

You say "animal-lovers" like its bad thing. Like its a bad thing to care about something. Other then my self that is. I love animals and I am very proud to be a "animal-lover"!

I have read every single comment that has been posted to this post. I still believe that animals should not be killed so you can make a fashion statement. That is what I believe, and I will stick to my belief. Doesn't mean I don't hear what you say. Its just that what ever you say will not change the side I am on. I don't believe in animal cruelty of any kind and never will. Nothing will change my mind. I do hear what everyone says and I don't live in a box. My opinion is my opinion and I will argue it any day.

Since when are arguments not based off of opinion? How about abortion? Is that not a real argument because its a matter of taste which side you are on? The real discussion can start when you stop accusing people just because they are not on your side or because they go against you.

I might be okay with fake fur.

@Italiangirl: "Since when are arguments not based off of opinion? How about abortion? Is that not a real argument because its a matter of taste which side you are on? The real discussion can start when you stop accusing people just because they are not on your side or because they go against you."

That has NOTHING to do with taste. Abortion is about when life starts, not about taste in the fashion-way. I can say that I like yellow shoes, you can say you hate them, but neither of us is wrong, because people can like what they want to like. Ergo, taste is relative. Having an opinion about abortion has nothing to do with what we're discussing, and you say 'I' go OT?! Contradictory, don't you think?

"I know what this discussion is about, obviously, since I am the one who started it. And killing animals for there fur is not cruelty to animals? This debate right here is not about testing or child labor. It is about FUR. If you read the question and most of the comments, they are about fur, not testing. I saw a question for that though so if you want to discuss that then that would probably be the best place to. This debate is about how in fur farms animals are stuffed into small cages with a bunch of other animals and live in disgusting conditions and are killed in ways like having their necks broken or electrocuted. Sometimes though when they are electrocuted they are not dead yet so they are skinned alive and feel everything. Usually that is considered animal cruelty. I really didn't think anyone could misunderstand that but I was clearly wrong...."

You are talking about some of the few fur-farms, not how the animals is treated in general. I agree, however, that these farms need to be checked and improved by the government in that country. But not every single fur coat needs to be a result of animal cruelty, you can't blame that industry in general, you need to blame every single country and their politics for not stopping these farms. THAT'S the problem.

"Yes I know we are not taking about human skin. I guess I have explain because you CLEARLY don't understand. Have you ever heard of the expression "Walk a mile in my shoes"? Kinda says it all......."

That I have to understand your opinion about this in order to critize you? I do understand, but I think you are ignorant when it comes to this subject. As I've said before, you can't see anything outside this box you've created for yourself. Or as you like to put it: "Walk a mile in my shoes".

"You say "animal-lovers" like its bad thing. Like its a bad thing to care about something. Other then my self that is. I love animals and I am very proud to be a "animal-lover"!"

I am myself an animal lover. I thought you got it because I remember I was saying 'animal lovers', not animal lovers. You know what " '' " means? It means that you should not take that particular word seriously.

"I have read every single comment that has been posted to this post. I still believe that animals should not be killed so you can make a fashion statement. That is what I believe, and I will stick to my belief. Doesn't mean I don't hear what you say. Its just that what ever you say will not change the side I am on. I don't believe in animal cruelty of any kind and never will. Nothing will change my mind. I do hear what everyone says and I don't live in a box. My opinion is my opinion and I will argue it any day."

That's a good thing, because the same will I do. I believe in what I say, but I am also ALWAYS open for people to come and change my mind about the subject. If I cannot argue about my subject anymore, then I believe I have to change my mind, because that means that the other side has better arguments than my side. You should always be open for having another opinion, because I really don't think you know everything about this to say you will never change your mind about this.

"That has NOTHING to do with taste. Abortion is about when life starts, not about taste in the fashion-way. I can say that I like yellow shoes, you can say you hate them, but neither of us is wrong, because people can like what they want to like. Ergo, taste is relative. Having an opinion about abortion has nothing to do with what we're discussing, and you say 'I' go OT?! Contradictory, don't you think?"

It does have to do with taste. Some people believe that life starts when a child is born and some believe it starts at conception. Its what ever you believe in. Not taste in fashion. Sorry I misread it the first time.

"You are talking about some of the few fur-farms, not how the animals is treated in general. I agree, however, that these farms need to be checked and improved by the government in that country. But not every single fur coat needs to be a result of animal cruelty, you can't blame that industry in general, you need to blame every single country and their politics for not stopping these farms. THAT'S the problem."

Yes they do need to be check by the government, and shut down. Okay maybe not every fur coat needs to be animal cruelty, if they are killed for their meat and everything is used. But most of them are. When animals are caught from the wild or bread by breeders they are mistreated. They are stuffed into cages with 30 other animals and have no food or water. Do you think these people care about the animals? The only thing they are concerned about is making money. They are not going to spend unnecessary money. They only care about them selves. And I can blame the industry. They are the ones killing animals. Yes the government should have some blame because they don't do anything but they are not responsible. Thats the problem in today's society. No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions.

"That I have to understand your opinion about this in order to critize you? I do understand, but I think you are ignorant when it comes to this subject. As I've said before, you can't see anything outside this box you've created for yourself. Or as you like to put it: "Walk a mile in my shoes"."

I can see outside the box. But what I see I don't like or agree with. When I say "Walk a mile in my shoes" I mean put your self in the animals place. If you where them would you like to be stuffed into cages? Go days without food or water? Be skinned alive? I don't know about you but thats not my ideal way to live.

You say you love animals and I believe you but don't you think your previous post contradicts that? You wrote,

"I love fur! And honeslty... Why the hell do you care so much? What about child labor, I would say that that's much worse. And what about animal testing? I bet that a lot of those 'animal-luvrs' use products that are tested on animals. The thing is, they don't think about it as much as when they see fur."

You say " a lot of thoes 'animal-luvrs'". Make it sound like you really don't care.

"That's a good thing, because the same will I do. I believe in what I say, but I am also ALWAYS open for people to come and change my mind about the subject. If I cannot argue about my subject anymore, then I believe I have to change my mind, because that means that the other side has better arguments than my side. You should always be open for having another opinion, because I really don't think you know everything about this to say you will never change your mind about this."

I am open for people to change my mind too. If you can. I don't really see it happening anytime soon because I don't imagine that is much you can argue that can get me to agree with animal cruelty. I am always changing my mind on a lot of things. But most likely my opinion on this is not going to change. If you can my mind on this then you deserve an award. I'm stubborn and I stick to what I believe is right.

Wrong to wear for the fashion but in really very cold areas you still needs to wear it to keep yourself warmer.

But i am strongly opposing this.

"Yes they do need to be check by the government, and shut down. Okay maybe not every fur coat needs to be animal cruelty, if they are killed for their meat and everything is used. But most of them are. When animals are caught from the wild or bread by breeders they are mistreated. They are stuffed into cages with 30 other animals and have no food or water. Do you think these people care about the animals? The only thing they are concerned about is making money. They are not going to spend unnecessary money. They only care about them selves. And I can blame the industry. They are the ones killing animals. Yes the government should have some blame because they don't do anything but they are not responsible. Thats the problem in today's society. No one wants to take responsibility for their own actions."

Well, I have to partly disagree with you. In fact, the most expensive fur you can get (of rabbit fur, which is the only fur I wear) is from farmers in Canada. They kill wild rabbits and (correct me if I'm wrong) use their meat as food.
Whether the farmers that are keeping animals in cages and treats them with cruelty is feeling sad for the animals or not, isn't really relevant. Of course these farmer should take care of the animals, but they are not boligated to CARE for them. There will always be sick people out there, and I don't think the government has done their job, so I will say that the most of the responsible is theirs.

"I can see outside the box. But what I see I don't like or agree with. When I say "Walk a mile in my shoes" I mean put your self in the animals place. If you where them would you like to be stuffed into cages? Go days without food or water? Be skinned alive? I don't know about you but thats not my ideal way to live."

Okay, here comes that PETA-thing you do. We don't have the same feelings as animals, they don't have the same perspective as we do. If a fox is born inside a 5 kvm cage, it does not miss what's outside. Because that is its world. You might feel sorry for it, but the fact is, that it is perfectly fine. I believe, however, that the animals should be able to run outside for an hour or two a day, inside a fence, but there are problems that follows if the farmers allows that.

"You say you love animals and I believe you but don't you think your previous post contradicts that? You wrote,

"I love fur! And honeslty... Why the hell do you care so much? What about child labor, I would say that that's much worse. And what about animal testing? I bet that a lot of those 'animal-luvrs' use products that are tested on animals. The thing is, they don't think about it as much as when they see fur."

You say " a lot of thoes 'animal-luvrs'". Make it sound like you really don't care."

I do care, and I am a politician, and I will keep on fighting for annimal rights in farms in Norway. But not in the PETA-way. I still love fur, and I love animals. But what I meant by 'animal-luvrs' was people who doesn't know what they're talking about, mostly PETA supporters.

"I am open for people to change my mind too. If you can. I don't really see it happening anytime soon because I don't imagine that is much you can argue that can get me to agree with animal cruelty. I am always changing my mind on a lot of things. But most likely my opinion on this is not going to change. If you can my mind on this then you deserve an award. I'm stubborn and I stick to what I believe is right."

An that's the right attitude. I agree with you for being against animal cruelty, but not the whole fur industry. And whatever you do, please stay away from PETA. They'll brainwash you.

"Well, I have to partly disagree with you. In fact, the most expensive fur you can get (of rabbit fur, which is the only fur I wear) is from farmers in Canada. They kill wild rabbits and (correct me if I'm wrong) use their meat as food.
Whether the farmers that are keeping animals in cages and treats them with cruelty is feeling sad for the animals or not, isn't really relevant. Of course these farmer should take care of the animals, but they are not boligated to CARE for them. There will always be sick people out there, and I don't think the government has done their job, so I will say that the most of the responsible is theirs."

Even if they do eat their meat it takes over 100 rabbits to make one coat. Why do you need that much meat? If you need it to live, yes fine I see the point, but they don't need it to live. The meat is just an extra bonus added on the the hundreds of dollars people give them to murder these animals. How is the way they are treated not relevant? They are wild animals that are meant to have freedom and are taken so they can be tortured and skinned. Obliviously I know that are not obligated to take care of them since the don't. Yes the government should do, its not the governments fault. The sick people that doing this, its their fault.

"Okay, here comes that PETA-thing you do. We don't have the same feelings as animals, they don't have the same perspective as we do. If a fox is born inside a 5 kvm cage, it does not miss what's outside. Because that is its world. You might feel sorry for it, but the fact is, that it is perfectly fine. I believe, however, that the animals should be able to run outside for an hour or two a day, inside a fence, but there are problems that follows if the farmers allows that."

Who says that animals don't have strong feelings? Who says you can't hurt them? Maybe a fox won't miss the outside but doesn't mean it won't be unhappy. And let out for an hour or two a day? They are WILD animals! They are meant to have freedom not live in a cage until they are skinned! You know you never actually answer the question when I asked you to but you self in their place. You just keep going on about PETA. I want an honest answer! Put aside the PETA thing. How would you feel? If you were put in a cage and only let out for and hour a day, not fed, and you live there until they decide to kill you because someone wants a coat?

"I do care, and I am a politician, and I will keep on fighting for annimal rights in farms in Norway. But not in the PETA-way. I still love fur, and I love animals. But what I meant by 'animal-luvrs' was people who doesn't know what they're talking about, mostly PETA supporters."

How can you love animals and support animal rights when you say that animals don't have the same feelings as humans? Just let them out for an hour or two a day, that totally justifies them murdering innocent animals that did absolutely nothing wrong but try live their lives. Thats a great way to support animal rights. You can totally stand up for the 100 rabbits it took to make that fur coat your wearing!

"An that's the right attitude. I agree with you for being against animal cruelty, but not the whole fur industry. And whatever you do, please stay away from PETA. They'll brainwash you."

How is the fur industry not animal cruelty? Look at the way they are treated, electrocuted and skinned alive. Tell me how thats not cruelty?

"Even if they do eat their meat it takes over 100 rabbits to make one coat. Why do you need that much meat? If you need it to live, yes fine I see the point, but they don't need it to live. The meat is just an extra bonus added on the the hundreds of dollars people give them to murder these animals. How is the way they are treated not relevant? They are wild animals that are meant to have freedom and are taken so they can be tortured and skinned. Obliviously I know that are not obligated to take care of them since the don't. Yes the government should do, its not the governments fault. The sick people that doing this, its their fault."

I can't even discuss with you one this one. You nedd to get OUT of your box, okay? They don't torture them!! Jesus!! This is impossible! It's like you don't even wanna listen. I try to tell you a fucking side of the story, and all you do is making things up!!

"Who says that animals don't have strong feelings? Who says you can't hurt them? Maybe a fox won't miss the outside but doesn't mean it won't be unhappy. And let out for an hour or two a day? They are WILD animals! They are meant to have freedom not live in a cage until they are skinned! You know you never actually answer the question when I asked you to but you self in their place. You just keep going on about PETA. I want an honest answer! Put aside the PETA thing. How would you feel? If you were put in a cage and only let out for and hour a day, not fed, and you live there until they decide to kill you because someone wants a coat?"

This is the same, fucking shit again (and I am sorry for cursing, but you are IGNORANT, you know that?)
I CAN, however answer your question. (and I did answer you by the way). I can not put myself in that situation, read what I'm telling you! We don't have the same feelings! PETA thinks we have the exact same feelings, but we don't.

"How can you love animals and support animal rights when you say that animals don't have the same feelings as humans? Just let them out for an hour or two a day, that totally justifies them murdering innocent animals that did absolutely nothing wrong but try live their lives. Thats a great way to support animal rights. You can totally stand up for the 100 rabbits it took to make that fur coat your wearing!"

You don't know ANYTHING about politics, you know that? Do you REALLY know how easily I can make you be ashamed of what you just said? I am ACTUALLY trying to make a compromise here, and you still won't take it. YOU are imposssible, because you've already croessed over to the dark side.

"How is the fur industry not animal cruelty? Look at the way they are treated, electrocuted and skinned alive. Tell me how thats not cruelty?"

Zzzz.. ignorant, ignorant. Can you do me a faour? Can you read EVERYTHING I've said now, at least twice, and then comment again? Because your comments now were just plain stupid. And I use that word to make you realize that you can do a lot better than that. If you are willing to actually talk about this as two mature persons, I am all for it. But when you talk to ME about that PETA crap, I'm out. I don't give up, but it's like talking to a mass murderer in order to make him see what he's done wrong. There's a wall right now between you and me, and you need to break it. If you'll do that, we can discuss further on.

"I can't even discuss with you one this one. You nedd to get OUT of your box, okay? They don't torture them!! Jesus!! This is impossible! It's like you don't even wanna listen. I try to tell you a fucking side of the story, and all you do is making things up!!"

Maybe its you who needs to get out of your box! You don't want to discuss it or you just don't want to admit that you take part in something so horrible! What side of the story have you tried to tell me?! That they are not stuffed into cages and die of starvation or disease!? That they are not electrocuted or have their necks broken before they are skinned?! You think I'm making things up! Get a clue! Google it if you want to! There are so many articles about this! When you do your research then you can tell me differently!


"This is the same, fucking shit again (and I am sorry for cursing, but you are IGNORANT, you know that?)
I CAN, however answer your question. (and I did answer you by the way). I can not put myself in that situation, read what I'm telling you! We don't have the same feelings! PETA thinks we have the exact same feelings, but we don't."

I don't care what feelings animals or you have or don't dammit! I'm not even going to bother with this because CLEARLY you take everything to literal and can't even understand a simple fucking question! In my books saying you can't because they don't have the same feelings is just telling me that you don't even want to think about it so you are avoiding the question!

"You don't know ANYTHING about politics, you know that? Do you REALLY know how easily I can make you be ashamed of what you just said? I am ACTUALLY trying to make a compromise here, and you still won't take it. YOU are imposssible, because you've already croessed over to the dark side."

OK so you said about being a politician in your last post and I just want to say that saying that probably isn't the best way to convince me. I don't know how things work where ever your from but most politicians I know of aren't exactly the most honest and selfless people. They are only out for themselves. And how are you trying to make a compromise! I honestly don't see a compromise here! And no, I'll admit, I don't know anything about politics. What that has to do with it I have no clue but I'll go with it. Go ahead, try and make ashamed of what I said. I bet you can't.....

"Zzzz.. ignorant, ignorant. Can you do me a faour? Can you read EVERYTHING I've said now, at least twice, and then comment again? Because your comments now were just plain stupid. And I use that word to make you realize that you can do a lot better than that. If you are willing to actually talk about this as two mature persons, I am all for it. But when you talk to ME about that PETA crap, I'm out. I don't give up, but it's like talking to a mass murderer in order to make him see what he's done wrong. There's a wall right now between you and me, and you need to break it. If you'll do that, we can discuss further on."

So I'm not going to lie, I'm really kinda pissed right now. Forget about freakin PETA! I am not a member of PETA nor do I know much about PETA! Everything I said is what I believe in! So my comments are stupid just because its not what you think! Because I don't agree with you! I am sick of hearing about PETA and how stupid I am because I am speaking up for what I believe in! I am taking to you as a mature person! I was being totally polite and respectful to you! Then you post that and just totally piss me off.

Cinders said:

'Hey, I know I haven't been saying much in this debate, but i've been popping my head in now and again and I just wanted to say I think this is one of the more interesting debates going on here. It's civil, and both sides have very good arguments, so kudos to everyone!'

I think it went wrong somewhere...

People please, let try to keep it civil, this was such a great debate from everyone.

I think that fur is wrong if you have no need for it, which is most of the time. However, if you need it to keep warm, then it should be worn. In this case, I believe that you should use every part of the animal.
But if we're talking wearing fur for fashion, then I believe it's tasteless and horrible.

I pretty much agree with LoopyLuna96.

Sappp:

Sorry. I just got mad because of her last post. She was rude with me so I gave it right back. I usually try not to get like that but she just really pissed me off.

"Maybe its you who needs to get out of your box! You don't want to discuss it or you just don't want to admit that you take part in something so horrible! What side of the story have you tried to tell me?! That they are not stuffed into cages and die of starvation or disease!? That they are not electrocuted or have their necks broken before they are skinned?! You think I'm making things up! Get a clue! Google it if you want to! There are so many articles about this! When you do your research then you can tell me differently!"

I think I need everything I need to know about this subject. If I didn't I wouldn't be so sure of what I'm saying. The other side of the story? First of all, you're not talking about the majority of the cases, okay? What you just said there is PETA propaganda, and we all know how PETA is. If you have a problem with it, you have to protest against the source, the government, I don't even know how many times you need to be told. You want me to tell you again?

"I don't care what feelings animals or you have or don't dammit! I'm not even going to bother with this because CLEARLY you take everything to literal and can't even understand a simple fucking question! In my books saying you can't because they don't have the same feelings is just telling me that you don't even want to think about it so you are avoiding the question!"

Okay, okay. I'm thinking fucking PETA right now. "I am a lonely hamster who doesn't have anything to eat. *BANG* A guy just shot me, oh no. - Fin."

You see? For the last time... Animals does NOT have the same feelings as humans. Google THAT!

"OK so you said about being a politician in your last post and I just want to say that saying that probably isn't the best way to convince me. I don't know how things work where ever your from but most politicians I know of aren't exactly the most honest and selfless people. They are only out for themselves. And how are you trying to make a compromise! I honestly don't see a compromise here! And no, I'll admit, I don't know anything about politics. What that has to do with it I have no clue but I'll go with it. Go ahead, try and make ashamed of what I said. I bet you can't....."

You see... That just proves your ignorance again. Politicians in countries like ours tries to actually help their nations. How on earth can that be selfish? And I really need you to answer me.

Okay, here we go: "They are wild animals that are meant to have freedom and are taken so they can be tortured and skinned." No, when we talk about the farmers in Canada, they get shot. *BAM*-like that. No torture. Being skinned, yes, of course they have to, but they do not feel it, ergo it isn't torture. They try to do it as quick and simple as they can. If the rabbit is wounded, they'll just break its neck. "Yes the government should do, its not the governments fault. The sick people that doing this, its their fault." I have told you... It IS, in fact, the government's fault. They are the ones not doing anything about it, pretending that it doesn't exist. THEY should be blamed, because they have the power to do something about it. "Who says that animals don't have strong feelings? Who says you can't hurt them? Maybe a fox won't miss the outside but doesn't mean it won't be unhappy. And let out for an hour or two a day? They are WILD animals!" Ha-ha-ha!! A fox born in a cage is a wild animal? PLEASE! I repeat myself, I hate that, but you need to listen. They don't have the same feelings as us! Got it? 'Unhappy'? What the fuck? You are giving animals human emotions, you won't fool me with that. "How can you love animals and support animal rights when you say that animals don't have the same feelings as humans?" So a simple fact is that determines wether I like animals or not? Do I even need to say more? "You can totally stand up for the 100 rabbits it took to make that fur coat your wearing!" Where do you even get the 100 rabbits-thing from? I need a link on that, and don't ignore this.

"So I'm not going to lie, I'm really kinda pissed right now. Forget about freakin PETA! I am not a member of PETA nor do I know much about PETA! Everything I said is what I believe in! So my comments are stupid just because its not what you think! Because I don't agree with you! I am sick of hearing about PETA and how stupid I am because I am speaking up for what I believe in! I am taking to you as a mature person! I was being totally polite and respectful to you! Then you post that and just totally piss me off."

So I guess you didn't do as I told you to do? The reason I'm bringing up PETA is because you remind me of a member. Believe me, that is not a compliment. But if you really are as ignorant as you say you are about this, can you read about it?

Go ahead and blame the government for your problems. Maybe instead of waiting for the government, who by the way doesn't give a shit, we should do something about it our selves.

Well politicians in MY country are selfish. They want power and money and will do anything to get it. Hell, you know who Rod Blagojevich is? Perfect example right there.

"No, when we talk about the farmers in Canada, they get shot. *BAM*-like that. No torture. Being skinned, yes, of course they have to, but they do not feel it, ergo it isn't torture. They try to do it as quick and simple as they can. If the rabbit is wounded, they'll just break its neck." I've never been shot before, hopefully never, but I would imagine it hurts. You have this gaping hole in your body. TOTALLY painless....

Yea the government is not doing anything about it but are they actually killing the animals? No they are ignoring it. Take responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming others for your cruelty.

They are wild animals. How you fail to see that is beyond me. The animals species is wild. They have natural instincts. They are wild animals. It dosen't matter if you lock them up in cages or not. They are still wild animals.

Yea I know animals don't have the exact same feelings, obviously, but they do have feelings. They have brains don't they? Or do you think they are just mindless empty shells that we should pay no attention too?

I was wrong with the number of rabbits. Its chinchillas that it takes 100. Rabbits are about thirty. Thats still a lot. And please! spare me the whole "there are tons of rabbits out there and thirty isn't going to make a difference" bit. I don't care if it was 1 or 200, its still taking the life of a living and breathing being. Its still wrong. Here is the website:

link

Ok so morals aside, why would you want to walk around wearing dead animal skin? You are wearing a dead animal. You don't think thats gross? I do.

I'm sorry but if that was your attempt at trying to make me ashamed of what I said you did sort of a pathetic job. All you really did is make yourself look like a heartless human being.

I think wearing animal fur is totally wrong. Everything about it is barbaric and horrible, but i look at the world we live in today, where technology is taking over little by little, kids being sold into prostitution, animal abuse, kid abuse, murders that happen just because someone wanted to do it. This world is not a lovely place. I have my dogs who i love oh so much and who i would kill if whoever touches them. I don't wear anything that has to do with leather, fox fur, bunny fur, or anything similar. What is the use of hunting? what is the use of skinning an animal just to wear their fur to make a fashion statement? it's sad how people many people don't care to much for animals just because we are "superior" but we wouldn't be saying that stuck in a cage with (nothing to defend ourselves with)a hungry lion. It's sickening how we abuse that title, and how heartless someone can be. The younger me would hope that people like that would die slowly, but now that i matured i can only pray that the lord have mercy on their souls. I've been brought up around animals all my life and yea i would damn sure choose an animal life over a human...

but when this world self detonate we'll be seeing who are the week ones....smh

link


link

watch these videos...

I watched these. I still don't think wearing fur is wrong. The way these animals are treated is very wrong and something should be done about it. The problem for me is the way the animals are slaughtered, not the fact that they are.

Unless the entire animal is used (which is very rarely the case in the fashion industry) I'm very much against killing animals just so people can look better.

If an animal's fur is taken just for a fashion statement, absolutely. Also, in cases where the fur is needed for survival, I would see it as cruelty if the animals were being horribly mistreated.

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-J3L­fMO­OlU­­M&­amp­;a­­mp;­­fe­a­t­ur­­e..­­.d­e­d­


link

watch these videos..."

I only saw two minutes of the video and the part where the first animal was skinned. I had to stop watching.
For some reason, I am very sensitive to cruelty against animals. It just...disturbs me strongly. Probably because to me, an animal can generally be a defenseless creature, and it surprisingly appals me that even one of our most defenseless creatures are remorselessly harmed.

"The problem for me is the way the animals are slaughtered, not the fact that they are."

Word.

"The problem for me is the way the animals are slaughtered, not the fact that they are."

"Word."

I still do not agree with that. Just because you kill something or someone in a humane way does not make it justifiable.

You're also a vegetarian I hope?

No I am not. Now please save the lecture on how if I preach this much about animal cruelty then shouldn't I be a vegetarian? Let me explain. First, if I could be a vegetarian, trust me, I would. My will power sucks and my entire family eats meat. (and hello! I'm Italian! if your not eating pasta your eating some sort of meat!) I know that is not an excuse, so again, please I don't need the whole "practice what you preach speech". Also, and I know it does not justify my own actions,when animals are used for their meat, every part is used. They are not skinned and tossed aside. People do need food but they do not need floor length fur coats. Go ahead and call me a hypocrite for it but also keep in mind (again) that this discussion is about FUR, killing animals just for their FUR. Not for their meat.

I'm sorry I didn't see this pick sooner, but it's funny that I saw it now, as yesterday I saw a woman wearing a fur coat (it may have been imitation) and I was a little surprised at the level of my surprise. Fur seems so anachronistic for a temperate zone (such as the one in which I live). Honestly, my first association with fur coats is of classic monochrome movies like "Christmas in Connecticut", so it's weird for me to see young people wearing fur now.

But that's all beside the point of the debate. The question is (paraphrased): "Do you think wearing fur is wrong?" My answer is "no". Fur is not inherently wrong; it can be harvested in a way that does not kill the animal. Whether or not it is harvested that way is not covered by the question. I suspect you may want to ask: "Is it wrong to wear fur clothes when the animals were killed solely to make that clothing?" My answer (and, I suspect, the answers of many others) would be different in that case. Since the question does not address the origin of the fur, my answer stands. There is nothing wrong with fur intrinsically.

How can you harvest it in a way that does not kill the animal?

I think people here are making the argument way too complicated. The issue is really very simple:

1) Do the animals consent to be killed?
2) Would you be willing to be killed without your own consent so that someone else can turn part of your body into a consumer product?
3) Should your consent be respected if you do not respect the consent of others?

How would you like it if someone killed you and wore you around?

Yeah.......as nearly always, I'm with Cinders.

I wonder how many people who picked "yes" are vegetarians...

To me it depends how it was acquired. If the animal was already dead or the animal was killed in a humane way, that's much different than straight up slaughter. Like if an animal was already killed for food, then the fur might as well be used because honestly that would make the sacrifice (so to speak) more worthwhile.

I also think cultural aspects should be considered. I feel like there are probably some cultures that have wearing animal fur as an important part of religion or tradition or something of the sort.